Reptile & Amphibian Forums

THE LEADER (Surrey, British Columbia) 18 July 04 Letters x2: Scaling up reptile education: snakes should have been kept apart
As an active member of the herpetological/herpetocultural community (study and keeping of reptiles), I am compelled to respond to the article "Sneaking up on a snake."
We understand the attraction of reptiles to the general public. For some it is curiosity while others it can be fear and/or fascination. As such, the popular media (such as yourselves) finds the topic irresistible.
Unfortunately, education and understanding of these animals is rarely the intention of such publicity. Instead they are portrayed as evil and dangerous beasts.
As I have spent the past three years educating groups such as Guides and Scouts about reptiles, perhaps some basic facts are in order here as well.
There are over 8,040 species of reptile alive today, of these approximately 560 are venomous. Of the remaining 7,470 or so non-venomous reptiles only about 35 can be argued to be potentially dangerous to humans.
In fact, documented human fatalities can be attributed to fewer than 16 species worldwide. Furthermore, within North America, non-venomous reptiles are responsible for fewer than 12 deaths over the last 10 years.
In all cases, improper care and caging of the animal was directly related to the incident. In stark contrast, in the U.S. alone, domestic dogs are responsible for 4.7 million injuries due to biting - 800,000 of these require medical attention and average 17 fatalities annually. Clearly, reptiles in captivity are not the danger we would be led to believe.
In addition, I would like to admonish the Rainforest Reptile Refuge for their behaviour. It is reported that this animal has laid five clutches of eggs thus far.
This can only happen if the female is introduced to a male of the same species and allowed to breed. This is much the same as if dogs and cats held at the SPCA were allowed to breed and reproduce repeatedly.
I saw your article on the rock python, after it was linked to on some community forums.
Curvy would not be laying any eggs if Mr. Springate actually practiced proper husbandry. In order for Curvy to lay fertilized eggs she would have had to have been kept in an enclosure with a male.
These animals are solitary by nature, and anyone who has kept snakes as pets can tell you that they should be kept apart except for the express purpose of breeding.
Solitary animals, when placed in close proximity to others within an enclosure can undergo stress related disorders, such as refusing to feed, or increases in what would be normal parasite loads, due to a decreased immune response.
Rock pythons are aggressive snakes, there is no doubt about that. But they don't come looking for you, they're more likely to flee, and attack if cornered. There have been reports of children and domesticated animals in their native range being consumed.
While consumption of humans hasn't been confirmed, it's possible that a child stumbling on to a hunting python might become its prey. But an animal in captivity that is fed regularly will not make an overt effort to consume foods that would be unnatural to it in the wild.
I would not recommend these snakes to anyone who is not already well versed in reptile husbandry, and would hope that anyone who owns one has taken proper measures to ensure that it is in an escape proof cage to prevent accidental encounters. So on that point I would agree with Mr. Springate.
But on the matter of allowing the animal to breed, then turning the butchering of her young into a media event to popularize his "refuge" is just despicable.
Mike Wagner, St. Thomas, Ont.
Re: "Sneaking up on a snake"
So to answer the question: How do you stop if from reproducing? Don't put a female rock python in with a male rock python. That would be helpful to start. I guess no one asked why they were breeding it in the first place?
Mr. Springate's comment to Mr. Read was, "Someone else created this problem."
My answer to that is "No, the Reptile Refuge created this problem through their careless stupidity of placing two rock pythons together and letting them breed.
They should be ashamed of themselves for creating this problem - a problem they rail against and yet they have done it themselves. They are negligent, irresponsible pet owners.
My comment to that is the sheer hypocrisy of that supposed Reptile Refuge that takes in these unwanted reptiles but allows no adoption program because no one can possibly look after these animals but them. They are garnering financial support through ignorance.
I also question why the sensationalistic slant everything from them has to take.
They know absolutely nothing about these animals and yet they listen to the worst, most negligent and irresponsible group of people - the anthropomorphic Rainforest Reptile Refuge.
I ask you, did the Reptile Rainforest bother to ask anyone in the Lower Mainland reptile community for help with this big python?
No. And why? Because they don't want help, they just want media headlines of the most negative kind.
Why not do a real report and go into that refuge and report on the overcrowded conditions there and ask them when they plan on doing something about it.
Like put in an adoption program so the animals go to good, caring homes.
Teresa Piorun
Fraser Valley
Herpetocultural Society

Wes' Comment: I've received a couple of well-worded polite e-mails that have expressed a concern that I am 'contributing' to the python-hype by constantly posting the various press items on this specific subject. While the concerned senders have legit concerns that these items getting out in the public causes problems for herpers, my position is the situation as reported in the press is already in the public eye and fair game for comment.
All I'm trying to do is ensure that the people most experienced with keeping the particular press animal - you guys and some other similar forums (the venomous people have similar problems)- have access to the original item (not hearing a partial report from a friend of a friend ...) and can have an intelligent discussion of the press item amongst peers ... before they go public with a newspaper item to confirm, deny, refute or educate the original story.
No offence meant (I'm a newt keeper, but vey pro-python), and I'm sure not trying to add pressure onto anybody.
respectfully,
Wes
snakes should have been kept apart

THE LEADER (Surrey, British Columbia) 18 July 04 Editorial: Eliminate need for the refuge
Who thought a snake and her eggs could generate such public reaction. However, Curvy the rock python and her doomed offspring did exactly that last week, when their caretaker - Paul Springate of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge - told the media he would have to destroy her 42 eggs, calling it a prime example of why people should not own exotic pets.
The response - primarily from the community of reptile fans and owners - was quick and vociferous.
Letter-writers accused Springate of being irresponsible, the media of being sensational, and the refuge of perpetrating inhumane treatment of the creatures in its care - which number more than 400 involving 66 species.
People argued that a male snake should not have been allowed to live in the same enclosure as Curvy, and hence her eggs would not have been fertilized (she would have laid a clutch anyway).
Springate was chastised for his descriptions of the dangers the snake posed.
And particularly damning were comments that the refuge keeps its animals in unhealthy and overcrowded conditions, while adhering to a no-adoption policy.
Clearly, the publicity Springate wished to bring to the plight of the refuge and its creatures backfired to some degree, although he said he has also received calls of support.
Apparently, there wasn't much thought given to the issue of the snakes co-habitating, nor was it particularly useful for Springate to dramatize the snake's "nasty" nature in the way he did, which raised the ire of reptile lovers.
We accept the criticism that the media did not ask some key questions, nor did it offer other research.
However, that said, the wave of negative reaction that resulted is unfortunate, and not just a little hypocritical.
The Rainforest Reptile Refuge is the only one of its type in the Lower Mainland. Springate took it over from other operators last fall. He has so many creatures in his care that he is trying not to accept any more, although people keep dumping their unwanted pets on his doorstep.
Obviously, there is a huge need for such a shelter, and it confirms beyond any doubt Springate's key point - that far too many people who take on exotic pets don't know how to care for them, or lose interest, to the animal's despair.
Curiously, not one of the critics who e-mailed or called to criticize offered assistance, although several suggested the refuge should rescind its no-adoption policy.
Springate says he is unwilling to put his charges up for adoption, because it potentially puts them at risk of poor care or abandonment yet again.
None of the critics suggested any other alternatives.
We accept and appreciate there is a community of reptile aficionados and owners out there who truly know about and care for their special pets.
However, we also have no doubt that exotic pets represent a level of commitment and knowledge that a significant percentage of first-time owners simply don't possess or pursue, and as a result, the creatures suffer.
That's why recently we strongly recommended in this space that this city - all cities, in fact - adopt bylaws banning the sale, trade and ownership of exotic creatures.
We too would like to see the demise of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge - not because of how it operates, but because it is no longer needed.
Editorial: Eliminate need for the refuge

Hi Wes.

I for one appreciate your keeping the Kingsnake forums informed of current news articles concerning reptiles. No one else does this, and I like to know what is being read by the general public.

I hope that people who come to these forums routinely actually know something about reptiles in general and particularly the ones the forums are named after. If so, they should not be surprised by the slant the media takes when reporting about a herp-related incident.

Not too long ago one of your posts inspired me to write to a local newspaper that ran a particularly annoying article. If more people would take the time to compose courteous, well-written, and intelligent responses to the newspapers' content we may push the media slant to a little more upright position.

And so I say, great job, Wes! Keep it up!

Regards,

Bill

I just finished sending a nice email to the author of the second article posted on this thread, and I hope that they will take my thoughts into consideration, and send me a reply. I'll see what happens in a couple of days and then try again.