Reptile & Amphibian Forums

1. Does anyone know which of the rat snakes had the name change from Elaphe to Pantherophis? Did it effect all rat snakes or only a few? The CNAH web site doesnt go into detail.

2. I was looking at the CNAH web site and found some very interesting stuff. This link for example - http://www.cnah.org/detail.asp?id=133

Shows what is labled as a Midland rat snake and is called an Elaphe Spiloides That looks exactly like the black rat snake I have that was caught in Bullitt county KY. This snake on the CNAH web site is from Bath county KY. It also states that the taxon E. O. Spiloides is now two distinct taxons, the E.Spiloides and the E.Alleghaniensis. So now it appears as if the gray rat we all called the spiloides is now the E.Alleghaniensis and the rat snakes we have called black rat snakes here in this part of Kentucky are actually a Midland Rat snake (E.Spiloides).

Any takers?? What are your guys takes on this? opinions?

3. Also I know you guys had discussed this earlier, the deal on the Kisatchie corn now being labled as the E.Slowinskii (Slowinski's corn snake). If this corn was known for a long time, why didnt the snake just retain Kisatchie instead of getting some guys last name?? Just curious.

Brian

I'll take a little stab at your post. The name change concerns the North American rats snakes. The North American rat snakes of genus 'Elaphe' are changed to genus 'Pantherophis'. It's been pending for quite awhile Brian. Alot of people have known it was coming and have been expecting it. There was a change that needed to be done to separate the Euroasian rat snakes' genus from the North American rat snakes' genus. Some don't like the sound of Pantherophis and need to get used to it. When someone writes a paper that establishes a NEW species or subspecies; then the person or persons writing the paper will name this species or subspecies. They need to give it a name in the paper that is written. The person who wrote and did the work (others contribute) was Dr. Burbrink (sp). He elected to name the new subspecies after Dr. Swolinski. Some people had thought and there may have been pressure to do it; that the next snake species or subspecies would be named after Dr. Swolinski. That's the general idea on your questions Brian. There is more technical aspects to it and I hope I wasn't too far off on it.

I got some very indepth answers on a seperate forum.

You are correct, the entire Elaphe genus is now Pantherophis and all the name changes are due out this fall. i.e. Elaphe Obsoleta Obsoleta is now Pantherophis Obsoletus Obsoletus.

Some believe that the spilodes will remain so and not be broken into 2 seperate genus and that the E.O.Obsoleta that is called the midland rat will also remain in the Obs. genus.

The Slowinski corn will probably be renamed something other than Slowinski or Kisatchie because Kisatchie as we all know is a region in LA. And the snakes range is also in AR and TX so it shouldnt be called the Kisatchie. Guess we will just have to wait and see what the outcome will be.
Brian

to be divided up so to speak. The main black rat snake population range will be called the Eastern rat snake or something like that. I'm just mentioning this as some thoughts I've read. But, I've heard and read about the black rat snake being three separate subspecies? Maybe someone can add and/or clarify more on that.

I agree with what you're saying, TER, but another thing is, Burbrink's divisions of the obsoleta complex is hotly contested, and it may eventually go back to the way it was. But I think that obsoletus will remain in Pantherophis, along with guttata, bairdi, vulpina, gloydi, etc.

Also, the genus Elaphe still exists, but only contains a few of the Old World ratsnakes compared to what it did have before. It now contains schrencki, quatuorlineata, dione, bimaculata, and possibly a couple others.

The Kisatchie corn is Pantherophis slowinskii, at the moment, but it looks very possible that that will be changed to P. guttata slowinskii, in the near future. Then it could be called the Kisatchie Corn, TX Corn, Louisiana Corn, or maybe just Slowinski's Corn..LOL. I guess we can just take our pic

TC

and helping me out. I've heard Burbrink's paper isn't going through acceptance very well right now. Isn't there a follow up paper to the "A Reevaluation of Populations of the Corn Snake . . ." by Vagahan, Dixon and Thomas. Their 1996 paper is the accepted definition currently isn't it?

Actually I'm just doing my thing in the area that most interests me, throwing in my opinion occasionally.

I think Vaughan, Dixon, and Thomas will do a followup paper involving the various corn snake subspecies, eventually. Sometimes it takes a little while. Meanwhile, I just sit back and look at other peoples' opinions, some of whom are very knowledgeable. I do have some pretty strong opinions myself sometimes too, like with "slowinskii", wanting it to be P. g. slowinskii. I think slowinskii is closer to g. guttata than to g. emoryi.

I agree, the accepted way to call them is Pantherophis guttata ssps, right now. Except Slowinski's Corn is P. slowinskii. Burbrink's changes within obsoleta and guttata are not widely accepted and I don't expect will stand the test of time. I for one don't care to use them. Also, what goes on at CNAH is not the last word either. What gets accepted and used in the general scientific community is most important.

In the future, it's possible we could see two species, emoryi and guttata, in the Corn Snake Complex, which I wouldn't mind, unless it could be shown that emoryi and guttata are truly intergrading. If that were the case, then the complex might look like: P. e. emoryi, P. e. meahllmorum, P. e. intermontana, P. g. guttata, and P. g. slowinskii. Amateurs just have to have a lot of patience...LOL.

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