Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just read a care sheet and it said that fish aquariums are bad for tortoises. Right now my baby leopard is 2 inches and I keep the lids up at all times and have a heat lamp on one side. I use cedar mulch as the substance. I thought I was doing okay, but this care sheet scared me? Should I be doing something different?

The lunitic fringe says they are but... that's neither her nor there.

It sounds like you've been using one and doing well with it.

Some precautions.
Don't put a tortoise over 12 inches scl in a 10 gal tank.
Don't use a lighting or heat source over 600w on a 10 gal tank with your tortoise.
Don't place your 10 gal tank with tortoise in the direct sun in a place like Phoenix, AZ on a day like today.

While I do hope you see I'm trying to be a litte funny here I also hope you see the point.

It's a container just like any other that has the same restrictions as any other. If it is working for you and your animal is doing well there is nothing 'wrong' with it.

In cooler climates the higher sides make it easier to maintain good temperatures.

In warmer climates the higher sides could be a problem if you are not careful.

Let the animal tell you if it likes it or not.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks for the advice I feel much better. I guess it is working for now-can't really tell I haven't had him all that long. Thanks for the advice I appreciate it

I have had many people tell me that the aquariums are bad and many people say they were fine, including my vet. Like Ej said it is dependant on the animal. Sometimes torts will constantly try to get out (not understanding a glass barrier) and they will bang on the tank all the time. This has hte potential for being bad.
However I have had one of my russians for 10 years now. He has ALWAYS been in a tank. I found that when he passed and banged on the side of the tank it was time for a larger tank. I would get him a larger tank and he was good for a few years. But now I have a new tortoise and he hates the glass tank. I had to put decorations around 3 of the 4 sides to get him to stop banging. He is pretty small and in a tank twice the size of my bigger russian. So I am switching him to a new enclosure.

Some people also feel that there is not enough ventilation etc. If you have a screen top it does not matter. Plenty of circulation.

So just remember to give him plenty of room even if it is a hatchling or a small guy still I would have him in at least a 20-30 gallon to start and move up from there. And like EJ said let them tell you if they don't like it.

Christina
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0.0.1 Hatchling Indian Star Tortoise (Sitara)
1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.1 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.1 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Albino Pacman Frog
0.0.1 Budgett's Frog
0.0.2 Starry Night Reed Frogs
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.3 mice
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

This is basic to any reptile keeping. Cedar and/or Pine products cause neurological damage to the animal.
Grass Hay (orchard grass or timothy grass), not alfalfa hay are good substrate choices. Many sulcata keepers recommend grass hay as a substrate because the tortoises can (and usually do) eat it. Again, you may want to put down a few layers of newspaper underneath it to absorb moisture. If the hay gets too dirty, you can compost the hay and newspaper whenever you change the substrate

thought you guy like wrestling on MULCH so i decided to open another fresh bag...enjoy!

A good place to start would be http://www.sulcata-station.org/
The aquarium will work while the sulcatta is young, but you will eventually have to either build a custom enclosure, or maintain it outdoors. As far as proper care of your tortoise goes, however, I think that you really need to read up more on proper husbandery. Otherwise you won't have to worry about the tortoise outgrowing the aquarium, because it won't live long enough to do so...

First of all I own a Leopard not a sulcatta.

Second-thanks for the advice, but everything I read says I can use cedar mulch as a substance. This is first I have heard of it not being good.

I would not use cedar. I tend to like either chopped hay or the crushed walnut bedding. You have to be careful with the walnut bedding b/c some animals, especially younger ones, may try to eat it. Then they may become inpacted. My smaller tortoises' cage consists of the reptile astroturf (not the hard stuff for your back porch) and a hide box with Hay. He did not tolerate the walnut. The larger tortoise does just fine in teh walnut beding.

Well, you're reading some pretty interesting caresheets. Do you know that they use cedar in dog pillows because the fumes from the wood chips are strong enough to kill fleas?
Check http://www.tortoisetrust.org/ for caresheets that won't kill your tortoise.
Anyway, you can't say that I didn't try to warn you...

This is what happens when you limit yourself to a single resource.

Also... I think it was mentioned that we are talking cedar mulch. This usually consists of the bark and not the wood stem.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Sure not reading about Cypress Mulch rather than Cedar. Everything I have read saw NOT to use Cedar!!!

SCM

Somebody's paying attention... I thought we were talking about a Leopard BUT the suggested website is a very good one although a little to regimented for me. That doesn't dismiss the point that it is a good site with good information.
Cedar mulch and pine bark mulch is just fine for all sorts of herps.

That 75 gal tank should be able to house that leopard for a good 4 or 5 years if you do not take TOO good a care of it.

What I mean by this is that in a tank like that you can jack up the temps to 80 to 100 for a constant range, feed it the diet mentioned earlier (ad lib) and keep it well hydrated. If you do this and keep it constant you are going to get phenonominal growth and it will probably outgrow the tank in a year or 2. I don't think this is bad but I don't think that should be the goal.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum, so it's great to see a lot of people who are clearly devoted to all things herp-related. This is going to be a bit long, so I'm sorry!

After conducting a lot of research (or what I thought was a lot at the time), I purchased a red footed tortoise in mid-May. My boyfriend and I were thinking about buying from a private breeder, but we felt compelled to rescue a captive-bred tort from the local Petsmart...we absolutely love him, and I've spent as much time as I can learning about how to keep him healthy and as content as a tortoise can be.

I also have the aquarium setup right now. We were told at the time that a 20-gallon tank would be fine (his carapace is just about 6". We've now realized that he could use more room, although he is in good health (we're treating him for a respiratory problem he's had since the pet store incident, but he's slowly improving). Do you have any suggestions about the size of the enclosure? Unfortunately, I am apartment-bound and will be for a few years...so I would like to make something large enough that can last for awhile. I understand that he won't be full-grown for another decade or so (the vet estimated that he's about two years old, and we had a second vet who guessed between 1 and 2 years)...I do take him outside for an hour every day when the weather is warm enough here in the Pacific Northwest. He grazes in the local park, which doesn't use pesticides or synthetic fertilizers. When it's too cold, he takes supervised strolls around the apartment. I try to make his diet as varied as possible (mustard greens, dandelion, collard, some kale, papaya, sweet potato, berries, zucchini, clover, etc). He gets an enforced soak at least 3 times per week (we have some trouble keeping the humidity high in the tank, although we do have a misting system from Big Apple Herp).

So, the basic questions: what size enclosure would be appropriate to keep him in? What should I include in it in terms of hiding spots, plants, etc? Do you have any other recommendations about keeping redfoots healthy as they mature?

Thank you so much! Again, I apologize for the length of this post.

Ideally I would think to give it as big an inclosure as you can but if the animal is younger than a year, which is not the case here, smaller is actually better. As you figured out though, a 20 gal long is probably not a good idea (you gotta do something about that common sense).

Rubbermaid makes these underbed storage containers that work well. They come in many sizes.

There is a company(not at my home computer so I'll post the link later) that makes these dynamite enclosures out of plastic that will last forever. They run about $150 but they are well worth it.

Finally, you can make one or have it made out of wood but this is tough for a RF if you are going to keep high humidity which, btw, is not a requirement for a RF. The wood tends to rot if not properly sealed. RFs are Grassland/forest edge animals and it would blow you away if you saw some of the dry areas they come from. If you provide a humid hide that should be more than enough humidity.

The one caution for your neck of the woods it to make sure it is warm. The standard RF cannot tolerate cool and damp very well and do develop respiratory problems pretty easily.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Cedar (be it wood, mulch or bark)is aromatic , meaning that it emits a scent in the form of minute particulate vapors that contain elements harmful to the neuroligical makeup of reptiles. This is not "single source" information but general knowledge relating to herpological husbandry. Why "EJ" would want to advocate information that is possibly harmful to novice herpers is beyond me. EJ, and anyone else truly committed to the safe keeping of their animals should look into the facts of using cedar for a substrate before using it as such. Just because EJ has not successfully killed his tortoise yet does not mean that he has not caused it damage. And another thing, the basic care for a Leopard Tortoise is virtually identicle to that of a Sulcatta, so the information provided applies. Every reputable reptile and tortoise site posted here will tell you not to use Cedar. If that is not good enough for you then maybe you should consider keeping hamsters instead of reptiles, they don't seem to be bothered much by it.

"Just because EJ has not successfully killed his tortoise yet"

I wouldn't bet on that if I were you. Judging from what I've seen him post here, he has killed PLENTY. EJ is a one-man avalanche of MISinformation. Cedar is bad for reptiles, especially tortoises. Period.

.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

the other 10,000,000,000 times you've dispensed pure bull[bleep].

How did you come to the conclusion I've killed plenty?
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Gut instinct based on your obvious lack of concern (and amazing ignorance) about how an amimal should be properly cared for.

That, and the fact that it seems, judging from what hou have posted here, that you take in more animals than you can properly care for so you can make a quick buck. I don't even consider you a true tortoise keeper.

I'm a collector. I like collecting things.

I take in critters people don't want and I just collect things. I purchase large groups of wild caught animals (large for me). I deal with many 'worse case scenarios'. That's my experience and where my advice comes from.

I do loose many tortoises/turtles and I can tell you the circumstance behind every individual animal I've lost... ever.

Now, take this experience into consideration and add it to the fact that I still know that feeling of a first (note ball python post on tortoise forum)(btw, 3 have pipped so far) I'm not going to suggest anything that I think will kill somebodys first pet and my experience is not based on theory.

(hey, i'm chatty tonight)
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Use of Cedar as a Substrate for Reptiles and Other Pets

©1994 Melissa Kaplan, News from the North Bay, April 1994

Despite its widespread use in the pet trade and for a variety of pet animals, there remains some confusion over the use of cedar--and by extension, pine--as a substrate for animals, especially for prey animals and reptiles.

In the Winter 1994 issue of Wildlife Rehabilitation Today, the director of a bird conservation association stated the question succinctly: "Everyone just says they have 'heard' cedar is harmful, but no one can supply a source of this information, via a study or an authority."

Dr. Richard Evans, a veterinary pathologist who is also associated with the Orange County (CA) Department of Public Health, responded to this question by discussing laboratory findings and practical experience in the use of cedar shavings as has been found by study and anecdotal evidence involving rodents, cage birds and poultry.

Dr. Evans states that the extracts of cedar and other soft woods, such as pine, contain a number of aromatic (volatile) compounds including hydrocarbons, cedrene and cadrol. Naphthalene (the active ingredient in moth balls) is also a member but is a distinct compound.

These compounds are known irritants of skin, and cause not only irritation, but the degeneration and death of the cells in the respiratory tract. Once this destruction is set in motion, the animals' defensive barrier is eroded, enabling infection by various microorganisms and secondary microbial infections of the lungs. The medical literature notes increased rates of respiratory infections found in poultry which is raised with cedar shavings in the poultry house. Owners of caged birds have noted similar infection rates, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.

In addition to the skin irritation and respiratory tract damage, these compounds activate enzymes in the liver which results in abnormal metabolism of certain drugs, something especially critical for animals undergoing antibiotic therapy or surgery.

Dr. Evans notes that there is also some evidence to indicate that reproductive rates may be affected, and cancers promoted, through prolonged contact with these compounds. And, as with any other chemical or disease condition, the very young and very old are especially at risk.

Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed.

While reptiles and amphibians are not birds or rodents, this is nonetheless important for herpetoculturists. If a rodent or bird skin becomes irritated through fur and feathers, think how much faster that may occur in a furless and featherless reptile or amphibian. Snakes and lizards frequently burrow into their shavings substrate, becoming completely covered by the material, breathing air through the layers of piled up shavings.

With the similarity of the symptoms of cedar toxicity to other common reptile ailments, it is easy to see why toxicity may go undiagnosed. We will never know just how much that housing breeders on cedar may have affected their reproductive success, nor how many recurrent respiratory infections are due to other than stress and too-cool temperatures conditions in the animal's enclosure. Birds and rodents are both warm-blooded animals and as such have consistently rapid metabolisms. Herps, on the other hand, have metabolisms that fluctuate depending upon their environmental temperature and mealtimes. Many herps that don't feel well will stay in the coolest part of their enclosure, thus slowing down their metabolism, and slowing the effects of any substance ingested or absorbed into their bodies.

You might want the rethink buying prey that has been raised or housed on cedar. Evaluate the health of every animal whom you have housed on cedar and pine (after you clean out the cedar and any residual oils in their enclosure). If you see pet stores housing rodents on cedar or pine, you may want to discuss this matter with them, requesting them to change and, if they fail to, purchase your prey and pet rodents elsewhere.

I don't know about all the other stuff you were saying but I'm pretty sure Malissa is a pretty good researcher. There's one thing she does that I don't like and that is she forms an opinion based on experience or belief and writes an article to support her point of view. This is not a bad thing as long as it is realize it is one sided. You really have to look at both sides to make an intellegent decision.

I use many of Malissas sites for reference. They are usually quite good although I don't agree with some of them.

On the Cedar shavings, it has long been thought that it is toxic to herps. I can honestly say I've never used it for that reason. I haven't used Pine shavings either but because it makes a mess.

PineBark mulch I do use and have used for over 30 years. I like to use it when I need high humidity. I use it in totally enclosed enclosures with no problem.

Sorry about the error on my part but Cyprus registered instead of Cedar. Very silly mistake on my part.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

EJ, every posting that I have read from you has contained nothing but bad advice. You tell people it's okay to feed packaged foods, to keep tortoises in aquariums, that's it's okay to use cedar as a substrate...every bit of advice that you've given goes against the suggestions of all the experts. And yes, there are actual experts in the field.
I'm not sure what you are trying to prove by deviating from the accepted norms of reptile keeping. Cutting corners and subsequently compromising the health of your animals is a sign of ignorance, not originality.

.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

advice are just...advice, what works for them might not work for you and vice versa...but it's you and your tort that had to take that step into the unknown...to experience...

I just use a top soil/peat mixture. I don't have a leopard so I don't know if they need humid or dry but you just start of with soil and add more peat if they need more humid or you can use sand mixture if they need dry. It is cheap and easy. Plus I do it this way b/c I only have to buy 3 bags, soil, peat moss and sand and I can setup all my enclosures torts and frogs!

Good luck
Christina
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0.0.1 Hatchling Indian Star Tortoise (Sitara)
1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.1 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.1 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Albino Pacman Frog
0.0.1 Budgett's Frog
0.0.2 Starry Night Reed Frogs
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.3 mice
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband