Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And about sarcasm. I said,

People run, but will they run of quicksand? they swim, but will they swim in a pond of oil? We dig holes, but whats the sense if there is nothing to dig for and no place to dig.

I have a gopher(rodent) it dug as a baby, but now no longer digs, so gophers are not really diggers?? I have a gopher(tortoise) it never dug, so gophers do not dig either.

I wonder if the temps were perfect and humidity was perfect, and there was no predators, and no people, and food was just sitting there in a bowl, wild savs may not dig either. On the otherhand, maybe your sav thinks its in a burrow, after all, its in a cave(cave) thats in another cave(room) thats in a bigger cave(house) thats burrow entrance is always closed(door) How deep am I suppose to go?

I don't know, I keep albigs, I did have savs once, they both burrowed a lot as adults, but then silly me, I think I allow reasons for them to burrow like they do naturally.

Well I guess sarcasm is used because, you sound so smart yet do not understand that animals do things out of inherent behavior, learned behavior and need. If the tools or reasons are not there, then well, you have a tomato(more sarcasm). Your job is to give your monitor what it needs to be a monitor and do what its designed to do, then judging it will be much more accurate and fun.

You have to admit, its funny that your sav, in your house, in your cage, does not burrow like its suppose to, I wonder why? Thanks for allowing the sarcasm. FR

So what's the impetus that causes monitors to dig? Could it be hunting? Could it be predator avoidance? Could it be temperature/humidity needs (BTW, does anyone know if the tropical varanids burrow as much as the desert ones?)? Why do they dig? And can we accidently remove the impetus? I think I've managed at any rate. Of course, my question is how important it is once the impetus for it has been removed so far as the monitor is concerned.
Retes, you said you allow reasons for them to dig; what are your reasons? Is egg deposition it?

Well from your followup, I think your missing a basic concept. That that is, Savs were Savs, and they occurred long before your cage was built, in fact, they were savs long before people were people. They not only occurred, but were Savs and did all the things Savs do. Which includes many reasons for digging.

I would like to first recomend that you read some monitor books(lots of them) That would be handy. They would indicate that each species perfers and occurs in a particular habitat. In these habitats are the things that these species recognize as useful to their needs. Many things control where different species can survive. Things like water, plants, temps, soil types, etc. Even such things as what other animals are there.

You really have to understand, that what your monitor IS, is more about the above, then what it is in your cage. ITs history, its adaptions, its evolution(or not) are all what it is.

Again, your job, if you choose to except it is, to find out what your monitor is and provide the tools for it to be what it was designed to be.

To address all the particular questions you asked would be useless(at least for me) until you understand, that Savs are a monitor that has a history. They are their history, not your cage or what you think they are.

Most of this is common sense, and it seems the monitors have more then people. To dig a burrow, means to understand what a burrow is.

A burrow starts at the surface and goes down into the ground. It must go down farther then the monitor is long. Without having to go into the reasons of such a thing. I get the feeling the monitor knows that there is no digging down into the ground, if there is no ground. A burrow, must be dug in an area with appropreiate depth and lenght. If there is no depth or lenght, then there is no burrow. I know monitors have no formal education, but I think their practical education has taught them that you cannot make a burrow in a few inches of dirt.

More common sense, wild animals survive by avoiding predators, not by fighting them. I imagine you were raised in a middleclass or higher area, or you would have learned that too. Avoiding confrontations is better then taking the chance of losing one. Their holes are their shelters, their safty, their home. Its so sad that you do not give your monitor a home. please read until you understand that your sav already was/is a Sav. FR

I understand the concept that savs were sav's before I came along. I understand they evolved behaviors and preferences in response to natural stimuli. In captivity, that stimuli is not always present fully.
I do read monitor books; Monitors: the Biology of Varanid Lizards was my latest, and I'm looking at some general lizard books next (Lizards: Windows to the Evolution of Diversity, and Lizard Social Behavior are on my list). I understandt he concept of historical development; I'm a history major, after all.

"I would like to first recomend that you read some monitor books(lots of them) That would be handy. They would indicate that each species perfers and occurs in a particular habitat. In these habitats are the things that these species recognize as useful to their needs. Many things control where different species can survive. Things like water, plants, temps, soil types, etc. Even such things as what other animals are there."

I agree with your above paragraph. I do understand that my monitor is more adapted to live like that than in the cage. However, lets take a look at the role of burrowing in the life of a sav, in the wild, that's really what I'm after. What role does it serve? What conditions has it evolved to cope with? Most, if not all, evolutionary adaptations deal with overcoming challenges, either from the climate or the competetion. So what does burrowing deal with? Does it deal with the predation? Does it deal with climatic challenges? Did it actually originate as a hunting strategy? Which of these factors are the cause of the burrowing behavior seen in the savs?

That's what I'm after. They don't dig for no historical reason; that would require an expenditure of energy with no benefit, that's bad in evolutionary terms. So why do they burrow, and what in my husbandry results in them not digging? What need have I fufilled, or what stimuli have I denied, taht results in a lack of digging behavior?

My monitor is designed to be a mid to large predatory lizard in the African veldt, which feeds primarily on invertebrates, reptiles,a nd occasional small mamamals.

Obviously, I've chosen not to let him live in Africa, and I've no realistic hope of recreating a meaningful part of the African ecosystem; that would take the whole of the Texas panhandle. I try to mimic the diet fairly well; occasional small mammals, mostly invertebrate prey. I try to mimic temps fairly well, humidity I do my best with. Plants, no chance, other animals, no chance. I'm not introducing african grasses or african bugs into my apartment. I have no doubt that you've neglected to

I know savs are a monitor with a history, it's just that I wish to understand what in that history turned them into a burrower and what stimuli ensured that the behavior continues. Also, do the historical stimuli need to be present to ensure it's occurence in an individual animal?

Now, it could be that my substrate isn't deep enough; I don't even pretend to know or have any idea weather or not they know how deep it is without digging. My substrate is about 2 feet deep at max, although it is variable; some areas shallow, others deep. He's in a five foot long tank, so there's at least some depth. Maybe it's not deep enough to allow a real dig; I'll go ahead and experiment with it some more, but I'd given up after at 2 feet or so they didn't show interest in it.

Actually, Retes, I was raised in the rural Colorado Rockies, and am very good at avoiding both two legged and four legged predators. I have a hunch I'm at least your equal in that regard. I know it's better to avoid conflict, but this time I couldn't resist
My sav actually uses a little plywood stack as his home. It's an idea you popularized. *shrugs* Some plywood seperated by boards for him to crawl into (or in the past, sturdy arrangments of branches that offered cover) seem to fufill that need. However, that is in no way the equivilent of a burrow. It wouldn't feel the same, it wouldn't provide the same temp and humidity, etc.

I am glad you've read/reading. Now all you have to do is connect the dots. Your monitor is the monitor in the books. Your job is to express that.

About Retes Stacks, they are for saxicolis monitors, not savs. If you continue to use them they will scar up the skin on their backbone. They are designed to live in holes, not flat crevices, say like kimberlys or ackies. Actually ackies do both. You see, I coined the use of these stacks, I surely do not believe I invented them, after all, I copied wood and tin piles. Thanks and good luck FR

Actually the monitor in that book is V. rosenbergi.
You said that the stacks will screw with the skin on the backbone; Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep an eye on that, although I'll say that I put a little more space between them than I would have for any similar sized ackie. In the interm I'll try to figure out some more suitable cage furniture for him. I know he seems to rather enjoy the climbing logs (which is the other thing, everyone says sav's don't really climb, mine have, massively), perhaps I'll figure out another way to make them into a suitable sized shelter.

Actually several copies, and several copies of the second addition, the one you read, and both signed by Dennis King.

I really do not get the point of this conversation. You sorta make a statement, then ask why your sav does whatever. DK and I both tried to explain what we feel is the right direction.

The point is, we both have no idea, what your cage setup, and protocal is. Therefore I cannot say anything, other then, savs burrow as adults and climb.

You seem to know my name, then you may know that I believe all species of monitors burrow and climb and most swim too. Its just a matter of degree and condition. That goes for nature and captivity.

Also, none of this is theory. My suggestion is, try different stuff to express the abilities your monitor contains. Do it, not talk about it, then show it here with pics and conversation.

Let me try one last approach. Maybe this will help. One of the species I work with is Varanus varius, Lacies. When I say Lacies, the label Lacie refers to the wild monitor that occurs along the east coast of Australia. When I say something like, my lacie George, the george, refers to my large male lacie here in captivity. While George contains all the material that lacies contain, He may not express some of those traits here, the reason is, hes here in the states, not there in Oz. Hes under the impulses and conditions that are here. George does what he can to survive here.

In your case, Savs in nature burrow(for many reasons) your Sav so and so, may not. But thats not the Savs fault, its yours. Its also your job to figure it out. Not mine, as we can help with is, yeap, savs dig, young and old.

Now if your saying with your conditions, they have no need to burrow, cool. You do know, you can keep savs in a plastic shoebox with paper towels, they will not dig there either. Good luck FR

As a complete outsider reading this discussion, what stands out for me was a stance you took in your first post: Namely, that you have raised two exanthematicus from hatchlings (one of which died at a young age, the other is currently alive) and have jumped to the conclusion, based on the behaviours of those two individuals, that adult exanthematicus mustn't be the hole dwellers they are reputed to be because yours don't dig roosting (sleeping) holes. They dig for food and that's it.

Rather than wonder why your two individuals don't dig roosting holes (is my dirt no good?), you'd rather rewrite the natural history of the species (despite what is known about this species, they really aren't diggers as adults). I keep a species known for its tendency to climb, for food and for security. If the individuals I kept in my home didn't climb, I'd sooner question whether or not the cage furniture I have provided them is suitable for climbing than start telling people that this species doesn't climb as an adult.

Actually, I mentioned that I'm unsure if they're really inveterate burrowers, or if the digging in the wild was to fill a need that is already filled in captivity (food was the obivous one, shelter is possible, etc.). In short, what in my husbandry prevents it? Sometimes animals will continue to exhibit a behavior to fill a need filled in captivity (igs climbing, for instance). Other times they won't, although in fairness, that seems more prevlent among mammals. Is it an inablity to dig, or a lack of desire, due to me having "solved" the same problem that burrowing does? Which leads to the question of why the dig in the wild.

Your analysis is still all about whether or not they really are diggers as adults; or perhaps you have supplied them with all they need, negating a or desire need to dig; or maybe they only dig in the wild because they have to, etc. You're still skirting the question of whether or not the substrate you have provided is suitable for digging roosting holes. I could deny my climbing monitors anything to climb on while still providing them with all they 'need', such as food, warmth and shelter. It wouldn't kill them and I could justify it by saying that their needs are met, but I would be asking myself if they were receiving enough physical exercise and mental stimulation, and would also wonder if frustrating an animal's natural instincts is healthy in the long term.

As much as I can figure, the substrate is suitable, in that it can hold a burrow. It does after all. I've actually dug out holes and see if they last. There does need to be some moisture content within the substrate itself, but I keep it somewhat moist. It's not as clay-ey as I think would be best, but I've been so far unable to make it consistenly so.

Actually, wondering as to weather or not I've negated the desire to dig is completly logical and rational. I don't see any problem with it. It's certainly possible, at least theoretically.

Also, I do give him mental stimulation. And I guess he gets enough exercise; he certainly "cruises" at any rate, and he does climb some.

"As much as I can figure, the substrate is suitable, in that it can hold a burrow. It does after all. I've actually dug out holes and see if they last."

The problem is, as you're not a savannah monitor, the 'as much as I can figure' is not going to account for much. What is suitable in YOUR mind means nothing to a monitor, because it's the one that's going to have to live in that hole. Clearly, your monitor has chosen not to take that risk. Suitable substrate isn't just one that holds burrows, by the way.

Wondering if you've negated the need for digging is as much rationalisation as it is rational. However, how you keep your exanthematicus is up to you and if you choose not to try different substrates with it you don't have to rationalise with me. My original comment was that you were jumping to conclusions of what adult exanthematicus are like in general (ie not really into digging) based on a sample size of two captives, both kept by you. My thoughts were (and still are) that yours haven't been given the correct environment to show their digging behaviour.

You assume that the substrate is the only thing relevant to thier burrowing. I don't make that assumption because it has no evidence behind it. I know this substrate holds burrows and holes, at least when moistend.
If you really have any suggestions as a starting place for a substrate mix, go ahead and offer. I'll listen, actually, as I enjoy playing with it. But for now, I've got topsoil, peat moss, desert sand, and various mulches, to play with and mix. There's a few other products I can use. There's no place locally to just dig dirt (everythings' been doused in pesticides thanks to West Nile, or is in various protected lands).
And how the hell am I supposed to test it? I have been unable to find the soil composition of thier homeland so as to try and replicate it.
As for my small sample size, I'm well aware of it. And I still say reread what I wrote. What I said, or attempted to say, is that mine never expressed the burrowing behavior past a certain size (about 20-30 inches). I then wondered why, and positied that it might also be that whatever creates the urge to dig has been nullified. I recognize that's not an automatic assumption but niether should it be disgarded out of hand.

Unless there's another varanid posting, this was you:

"I wonder about how fossorial they are. I've raised two sav's up from hatchlings...They both started out digging massively, when they were small... However, as they grew larger they seemed to stop. They'll still dig, but only for food...So maybe they're less fossorial as they age? I know in some species marked habitat changes occur with age, esp. in Komodos (they become less and less arboreal with age). It could also be that their fossorial tendencies in the wild relate to the location of prey rather than any innate desire to dig."

I don't assume that the substrate is the only thing relevant to their burrowing, I am assuming that YOUR substrate is preventing YOUR monitor(s) from burrowing. As I said in my previous post, I don't care what you do with your monitors. They are under your care, not mine. I joined this thread only because you jumped to the conclusion that exanthematicus was not a burrowing monitor as an adult on the basis of the behaviours shown by two individuals that you've had (one of which died an early death). I've reread it several times and it still comes out the same.

As for the urge to dig being nullified, although this would be the most convenient answer (for you) as to why your remaining monitor isn't digging, that doesn't make it the correct answer, or even the most likely, and until you test it properly you will never know. The mixes you are trying clearly aren't working (and if it has to be that moist to hold burrows, the monitor probably isn't any more interested in sleeping in a damp burrow than you'd be). If there is no dirt available locally, go for a long drive and get some. But that's up to you. I repeat, I do not care what you do with your monitor and it has nothing to do with why I joined this thread.

YOu and I both know Ksnake doesn't allow duplicate names; I tried four or five before this one.
Unless there's another varanid posting, this was you:

I did not mean to imply that they do not dig as adults, esp. in the wild; I did mean to imply that perhaps the digging is caused by other factors than simply a desire to dig, and that those factors can be nullified (weather good or bad is another question).

And stop harping on the fact one died early. I actually had a necropsy preformed on it, to see what I could learn (expensive, as I was a freshman in high school at that time). The vet said it had to do with what he described as a congenital heart defect (as in the heart was screwy to begin with) aggravated by a diet heavy in fats. I learned, and adjusted my prey animals accordingly.

You too are assuming without evidence. As I stated, they did, when smaller dig with this soil mix. *shrugs*. I've fiddeled around with varying proportions, but the overall mix (soil/sand) has remained the same. It's also worked well for other animals, mostly snakes. Pits come to mind.

As for moisture: almost no soil can be totally dissicated and hold it's shape. Some of the very clay-ish ones can, I imagine, but I've unable to locate a source for that at all. It's not damp, but esp. at the lower, to middle, of the substrate, it needs to be at moist to the touch. I actually wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the benefit of burrowing in the wild. It seems to be for several snakes (Daidophis and Tantilla comes to mind) and amphibians. Go and dig down two-three feet in almost any soil anywhere, and it'll be moist and cool, at least compared to the surface. It won't be warm and dry. If they wanted that they wouldn't dig as much in the wild as they do; they'd go maybe a foot or two deep to provide some shelter and stop. However, when they dig large extensive burrows, exposure to moist soil will happen.

And if you didn't care about what I did with my monitors you wouldn't be bothering. So drop that pretense, please.
I live in the Texas panhandle. 90% of it's owned by private ranchers, the rest is protected land. Good luck finding a source of any dirt. Home Depot is my source. I ain't driving 5 hours one way to get to a place I can dig.

Ok Ok OK, I understand, this is just another case of conversational chess. Babble for the joy of babbling.

I mean really, you do want to sound smart, but come on, The texas panhandle and cannot find dirt, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha etc.

The Panhandle ain't nothing but dirt, a giant dirtpile in all directions, five hours, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha etc.

Well, if you cannot find dirt in the panhandle, then you are not looking. If dirt is a problem, maybe you should pick a reptile that does use dirt. No dirt, texas, panhandle, oh man thanks for the laugh. FR

I'll just end up repeating myself. You clearly want the last word. It's yours.

Not thinking you rewrote the book on bosc monitors. The best book on bosc monitors and a must have to monitor husbandry in general by that I mean all or any species is Daniel Bennetts The truth about savannah monitors. I say that because it tells you what they are and what they do, what they need to live and be healthy. I started years ago with a bosc then a pair, they seemed to do great, then after I dared to get some medical treatment for a case of internal parasites my husbandry showed its weakness and my large male died at 5 years old or so. It was a combination of problems as dewormers are harsh on them as well can damage their organs, but it can also help them if offered the ability to avoid stress by hiding in something they recognize as home, helps them to avoid dehydration by avoiding heat and dry (after all the burrow is high humidity, very damp as a matter of fact). They do live and come from a semi arid to arid grassland/woodland environment (hence the apet trade name savannah monitor)mostly found in farmers fields. The live in burrows for many reasons and it is instinct, they start burrowing almost as soon as they can out of the egg, they also climb as soon as they can, they do both for many reasons. One reason is to avoid birds of prey, wild dogs, predatory cats, etc, as well to get food, preserve moisture, to feel secure, to have a place to call home (a territory), and to be a monitor. So many bosc monitors live 3-6 months because they are kept in very very bad conditions, some live a year or 2 from being kept in very bad conditions, yet some live a few years from being kept in bad conditions, its all about what they need not what you want to give them because you believe they dont need it in captivity. Anyone remember Rusty? Rusty was a large seriously obese bosc that his owner thought he rewrote monitor husbandry, and that he discovered his way of keeping monitors was better than anyone else, simply because Rusty got fat, didnt dig, burrow, or do anything that monitors do, so what was Rusty since he didnt do what monitors do? Hes dead thats what Rusty did he died. Im sure his owner had better intentions for him but he didnt want anyone else to be right, and wanted to make Rusty into something else. If an eagle doesnt fly because its kept in a cage to small its whole life does that prove that eagles dont have to fly, or does it tell you some major cahnges are needed? My monitors do great with dirt and they are dirty suckers almost all of the time. Also someone recently said their monitor doesnt climb because its an adult and doesnt need to, well my big albig trys to climb almost everything, even if it breaks. Id look at what the animal is not what you can turn it into, at least if you see a monitor for what it is you will understand. This is a big hole with a huge monitor inside, whys it in there???

Providing a simple hide-box/log accomplishes the results of having a burrow without the bacterial and cleaning issues of trying to maintain a foot layer of dirt in a 2-4 foot tall cage.

Moisture retention is not an issue for a house-kept Sav. Burrowing helps maintain their claws but I imagine most owners have figured out how to keep them trimmed rather than being raked during normal handling.

Everyone has to recognize that it is contradictory to expouse the "need" to let your lizard feel "natural" while keeping them in confinement. They are not that intelligent and we are not keeping them in captivity for their enjoyment. Be honest and accept that we do it for our own purposes and many "unnatural" aspects are accepted without question. For example, if you really want to feed your Sav "naturally", stick to insects and rotting carcasses which is their primary diet in the wild. They hardly ever capture rodents, canned monitor food or most other foods considered acceptable for captive animals.

It is not about "letting them be natural", it is about providing the safest, cleanest environment for them while in captivity for our own enjoyment.

Stan's Savs

that was one of the most rediculous posts i have ever read. i did not read the last sentence though so hopefully you didn't say "no just kidding"

first: monitors are not intelligent enough to decipher a difference between a log and a dirt burrow.

how do you know that? have you done long term intelligence tests on varanids? what did the research involve? dang, we should call daniel bennet and let him know about this new finding.

second: you get the same effect from a log as a burrow.

i challenge that by your picture alone. a burrow touches the monitor at most points and provides it with moisture and security. that log with those baby savs (looks like a bad pet store set up)was way too big to provide security, does not help them retain moisture.

third: dirt is dangerous because of bacteria

then all wild monitors are doomed and will die soon! if your monitor is dying because of being on dirt, then you need to get different dirt. i suggest a shovel and some work ethic. monitors are tough critters.

fourth: man just think before you post.

andrew

2nd you know nothing about keeping them healthy or alive for that matter and you need to do alot of research before giving any advice. Youve had 2 little hatchlings (by the size Id say a week or so) and your gonna tell someone else how to properly take care of them and worse its advice that comes directly from the bearded dragon forum "experts here. Ive buried a few monitors in the past from improper husbandry as well geckos, etc etcetc, but the point is the cage you describe and have set up is only suitable for a toy pet. A log doesnt prvent moisture loss, or hold moisture, screen tops turn whatever is inside into lizard jerky, astroturk is useless except for sticking to your front porch for traction, and I could go on from there. Dirt is what they use, what they need, and what works, period, if your lizard has an immune system it doesnt get sick from darn near anything at all, immune systems are formed from allowing basking at high temps, ability to go underground in high humidity and low temps, to be able to sleep when they want to, eat when that want to, hide when they want to, avoid stress when they want and need to, bask when thet want and need to, not have someone tell them when to be a monitor or how. You can continue to kill your animals how you want to but dont give advice to others on how you do it, because if they do it they will have the same results and you are to blame as much as they will be for taking the advice.