Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hopefully I have your attention. I myself am aware of the economy,but was is up with the reptile industry? Some idiot will spend $75000. on a ball python morph but keepers won't spend a few thousand to become one of only maybe a handful of people with a specific species. #1 it's still a ball python(LOL),#2 venomous snakes should be a bit more costly just do to the responsibilities of keeping them,#3 these are rare not just a morph that can be produced over and over like the berm fiasco of the early 90's in herpetculture,and lastly a BALL PYTHON come on. This may tick some people off but I do not care. I am willing to share my experiences of keeping and breeding species both ven and non with others who are interested with no ill intent. Yes I have two Crotalus species currently not kept by others in the US and have access to other rare rattlers. This is not sales pitch but more for my own knowledge as to what is up with venomous keepers. We are no better than anyone else so lets not act like it. After all we all love herps of one kind or another. Thanks for your time.
Bill Hamaker

Bill, I completely agree man. I think its a joke on what people will pay for these Ball Pythons. I mean I see a$$holes on the classifieds selling a regular normal baby Ball as a yellow belly? LOL $1500! It is quite a sight on there sometimes.

The reason why venomous, no matter how rare, are much less expensive than non-vens like ball pythons is simple...
Most reptile keepers are NOT venomous keepers!
You can buy captive born vens for much less than captive born non-vens of almost any species. The hobby is relatively exclusive, and simply put, a pie-bald ball python is gonna sell more than a pie-bald monocle cobra.

The absolute highest price I've seen for a venomous snake (or in this case a pair), was a pair of inland taipans for $12,000 from Hank Molt...this is understandable, because, at least to my knowledge, this would be the first specimens of Oxyuranus microlepidotus available to private U.S. keepers...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I am a fan of venomous, and though a relatively new keeper, I've still been keeping tabs on the hobby for a while. I as a consumer enjoy the cheaper prices of venomous, simply because it means I can aquire quality animals at a decent price. I'm not a fan of morphs, and would rather spend a few thousand dollars buying a bunch of hots and A/V than buying one ball python that has an unusual pattern.

At the same time though, I have to say, if you are in the business of selling hots, money should not be a focal point, cause simply put, you'd be better off breeding ball python morphs. Albino adult C. atrox might fetch up to a few thousand dollars, but non-vens of the same morph can sell for several times more.

Thanks for the reply. As a consumer,keeper,breeder,and a dealer,it is not about the money,I deal in species I am interested in only. My longest and currently kept species are Corallus caninus(emerald treeboas) of common northern decent of SA. However rare species in my eyes are much more valuable than some morph I can find from numerous dealers. I've undersold the cost as a dealer at many times and probably have made some other dealers mad. Oh well,my animals my price. I've been given some good opportunities why not do the same for someone else at times? A small example would be a clutch of brazilian rainbow boa babies I produced from unrelated parents,these were the absolute best looking specimens ever seen according to others,sold for $100/ea from me. Healthy.feeding,perfect first clutch went fast(LOL). On the other hand vens should cost more because not everybody should keep them,the responsibility and lajistics(sp) involved,and if you get bit you are hurting not only yourself but others who love and want to keep these species. We all know how local,state,and feds go nuts over laws(LOL). At any rate thanks again.

I do agree that a rare "natural" morph should be a more desireable animal than the result of a designer breeder project...But I don't think it should be high priced (unless it's one of a kind) in that it will limit the reproduction of those rare species to the monied few that can afford them. Maybe good for short term profit (for the dealer) but not good for the animals.

This is one of those places wher you ask "which is more important profit...or the welfare of the species?"

"Vens should cost more because not everyone should be keeping them...."

What nonsense! How does spending more money for a snake make anyone more responsible? one of the worst cases of snake abuse and torture, that I have seen was a teenage boy I knew who had a rich dad who bought him the expensive stuff to play with.

I have worked with...studied and educated people on snakes including hots for over 30 years. With the exception of minor leauge (rearfang species) I have never been bitten...nor has anyone I've trained. The fact that my income has allways been in the low 5 figures never had a bearing on it at all.

Rather than raising the price, impliment strict qualifications of background and training. That will eliminate the unresponsible.

Jacking up the price is just an excuse for pure greed.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Last year someone was selling a bothrops insularis ( golden lancehead ) in the venomousreptiles.org classifieds for $25,000.
Don't know if he sold it or not, I know Hank Molt also had them up on his website, but they were much cheaper. Some rare species can fetch a pretty penny. There are a few rare bothriechis that I know of that are going for $3000-$4000 a pop. I'd take one over a ball any day.

As far as the ball python thing goes, it is quite rediculous.... They money will not last long for these breeders..... The same also goes for rare species of vens and non vens..... Just look at what albino atrox were going for when they first hit the market..... Look at patternless atrox now..... In two years you can cut that price atleast in half.... The point is alot of dealers are tying to make a killing..... The sad part is the herp keeping public is helping them by buying these animals.....

I used to think that by jacking up prices on vens, it would help keep some of the less qualified out of the hobby..... The fact is, it does not.... If someone wants something bad enough they will find a way to get it.... A good example would be people that would not or are not skilled enough to keep a $150 cobra will spend $500 to $600 on one that was voided of it venom.....

Here is what I do..... I wait for the prices of these "rare" animals to go way down (they always do) and if I still really want a pair then I buy them..... I think that is what everyone should do..... Do you think a ball python breeder wants to hold on to a bunch of babies forever???? Remember the dealers do not make the market..... They may put a price tag on it but the buyers (you and me and everyone else) really make the market....

There are so many people that think it's one side's fault or another. It's the breeders jacking the prices up, or it's the idiotic buyers for giving them the money. It doesn't take an economist (and I'm certainly not one) to sit down, knock everyone's heads together, and say "It's both of your fault!" lol Simply put, supply and demand always, ALWAYS, gives the edict on price. Why on Earth are those bp morphs so insanely expensive?? Because there are so few of that specific coloration or whatever around, SOOO many people want them, and bps are such a HUGELY popular pet snake. It always goes like that. If you want a piebald bp but don't want to spend $10k on it, that's fine, but you may be waiting for 10 or so years before you can buy one easily under $500 or even $1000. Why is that? Because bps have such small clutches, thus keeping their prices high for much longer. Albino burms came out in what, the mid 80s? Caused a huge stir, tons of people wanted them, their prices went through the roof. It wasn't long before market saturation caused their prices to drop, and quickly, because they have so many offspring. For a nonherp example, look at what the ratite (rheas, emus, ostriches) was in the 80s and early 90s. Birds and breeder pairs going for so much money that people were mortgaging their homes and lives to get them. Then what did it do in the mid 90s when so many people had these birds that could produce so many babies, the bottom fell out.

So anyway, I've started rambling. But to put it very simply, you absolutely cannot blame the breeders for pricing their animals at what they feel they should price them to reflect supply and demand. You can't blame the buyers for keeping the prices high. The only thing you really can blame, and I know this will be stepping on some toes....is our capitalist society

All that being said, I don't believe venomous snakes should necessarily be more expensive than any others, but rather should reflect the rarity of the species/morph. I do think having to pay for and being certified to keep using a permit system would be the best approach.
-Chance

hi,

carrying on the market theme, and reiterating the comments of a previous commenter, it seems to me it's a demand thing.

while herps are now totally mainstream, venomous herps are not and will never be widely popular. what fraction of the population will ever want a captive that can maim or kill them? it's sort of maladaptive if you want to go evolutionary with it. and it's not like chicks dig it, right? unfit on multiple fronts.

on to the feeding trough, how might all you out there characterize the various economic strata we venomous enthusiasts represent? (my guess, mainly lower-than-middle). how many of us are in our prime earning years, and/or with the disposable assets to gratify our curious taste? if you're marketing high-end hots, there's just not much of a target market. i reckon the median age of venomous keepers is 20 or so (translation - no money and/or relatively short attention span), and most people keeping venomous snakes now won't be doing so in 5-10 years, when they start to have a pot to piss in. kids, etc, will intrude.

for those of you bagging on ball pythons and all they represent (and i'm with you, believe me), think about how many of "us" have animals such as c.atrox, "gabbies" (ugh), b.arietans, n.kaouthia, and NOTHING else. i mean, there are trends (like trendiness) in the hot world that parallel those in the wider herp realm (how many non-hot keepers only have bearded dragons, leopard geckoes, and corn snakes??).

so, while we might all drool over pictures of, say, bothriechis nigroviridis, how many could or would ever pony up a few G's for a pair? who'd really want them? (me, for sure). same with bill's mexican crotalus (well, i'd need to see the aquilus - they can come pretty butt-ugly). if i had the money, i might buy them. i might go for willardi first. but what fraction of hot keepers would go straight for the albino WDB? or the piebald monocled? or a new pistol or a bag of meth? i shudder to think, a big one.

anyway, again, it looks like a demand thing from here. "rare" is a supply thing. a gold-plated turd might be rare, but hey, who wants it? won't sell to the masses, gotta find just the right buyer. which means you'll have to sit on it, or the price will have to come down. no offense bill, not calling your snakes turds (jesus, no), just exaggerating for effect. don't know you, never talk smack to folks i don't know, and i totally respect your initial inquiry. it's like the bumper sticker, "if you're not outraged you're not paying attention". what the hell IS up with our hobby? why is our dirtbag:decent person ratio so poor?

along the last line, it might also be that some of us aren't entirely squeaky clean and don't want to risk anything by inquiring into the purchase of mexican (translation - possible sting) snakes. further cutting down on the available market. just a last-minute thought.

there was a time when most venomous transactions were trades or outright gifts. i liked those days, there was just less bad blood. like, how can you feel burned when you don't expect payment? perhaps our contemporary business model is flawed.

cheers,
jimi

median age of 20! Damn I feel old! (lol)

Frank (age 52)
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"Yes I have two Crotalus species currently not kept by others in the US and have access to other rare rattlers"

Just out of curiousity, what two species do you keep that no one else in the US has?

Thanks to all the input and to each his own I suppose. The fellow herps in my opinion should all stick together and not be egotistical amongst themselves. We are all friends with one thing in common,correct? I'll respect others and learn on issues I don't know about as I go. I am 33 for the median being 20's. I refuse to give this up for family as this is my passion. I will not specify to those who ask of the species as it doesn't make a difference. Not for sale and wasn't inyending this to be an advertisement for prospective buyers. Hope to see you who can come at Hamburg on Aug 7. Once again thanks for the input.
Bill

I could care less about the snakes being for sale or not. I am just curious as to why you think you are the only one with them in the US. I can almost guarantee you that you are NOT the only one with them as almost every species of Mexican Crotalus is represented in at least one US collection. Don't assume that because they're not offered for sale on the net, they don't exist...

Sorry,wasn't trying to step on anybodies feet. Oaxacans and the other species is not mexican. Take care,Bill

n/p