Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This forum has become a ghost town, so I figured I'd post something new and of potential relevance.

I was speaking with a friend and fellow breeder the other day and he told me that he knew a guy that had purchased a lot of high end snakes from a breeder (name withheld) with the intention to breed them to eventually make money on the offspring,... and that year after year they would not breed for him much to his bewilderment,... and he somehow finally discovered that the breeder he had purchased them from had injected the males with spermicidal prior to sale to somehow render them sterile for life. Has anyone else heard anything similar to this? It's the first I had heard of it, and quite frankly it sounds so incredibly implausible that I immeditately discounted it as some form of horror story,.. but then I began to wonder. Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction, you know? I just couldn't see how a spermicidal would be effective for any extended period of time. Wouldn't it be filtered out of the snake's system in short time? And even if it were there and viable, how could it be detected? Blood tests? Com'mon, we need a scientist here to explain the micro details if possible. But I would most certainly dred this ever happening to me, so I would like to probe into this subject to find out any truths or otherwise. At the very LEAST to dispell this as pure nonsense so as to never worry about it again.

So has anyone anywhere ever had a problem with their stock from a particular person not breeding? If so I would be interested in hearing about it, as I'm sure other breeders would too.
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I have heard of this also a few years back, and wel if its true or not I dont know. Does sound sick and very sad if true.
-Shaun D

Any details would be appreciated by all, I'm sure. Any names in connection with the rumor,.. what was used, and how, etc.

>>I have heard of this also a few years back, and wel if its true or not I dont know. Does sound sick and very sad if true.
>> -Shaun D
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I realy dont want to spead the gossip. I heard of it some years ago and as far as I know is still a rumor. As to any partys involved I suppose that will come out if the storys are true. If not then I feal they realy dont need to be smeared though any mud. -Shaun D

I shouldn't have asked that here. I see that now. Yes, I am going to be very careful to not make any mistakes and get any rumors going and will only say any names once I find out 100% for sure that what I have heard so far is truth. Only then. I'm working on it feverishly and getting many MANY emails about this.

>>I realy dont want to spead the gossip. I heard of it some years ago and as far as I know is still a rumor. As to any partys involved I suppose that will come out if the storys are true. If not then I feal they realy dont need to be smeared though any mud. -Shaun D
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I haven't heard of anything like it in snakes. If anyone is using something that renders their male offspring sterile but are selling them without a disclosure that is horrible and it might be illegal along the lines of false representation. Personally, however, I find that if this does exist it has potential as a sterilization tool for animals that are purchased without intention of breeding -similar to "pet" quality in AKC dogs- or adopted as rescues. It may help with problem populations such as normal Burmese pythons, if it is shown to be a safe way to sterilize a reptile.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders

I don't know how true it is, but I read something like this(I think on pythons.net if it's still around) that something like this was being done in the early years of blackhead python keeping-if true, I don't see why it wouldn't/couldn't be done with Burms.

I don't want to stray too far from the original issue, but I too would be all for doing this to overpopulated and "rescued-for-adoption, not-for-breeding" type snakes. But only if it were 100% safe for the snakes, and testing would have to be done for this.

This is the first I have heard about it being done with the black headed pythons, but it is duly noted and added to my compiling data. If zoos do this to prevent private breeding of restricted species, that is one thing. If officially allowed, etc. But if private breeders are doing it and selling these tampered offspring without disclosure, as Marcia said,. then that's a whole different ballgame and certainly highly illegal and most definitely immoral. I am going to try my best to get to the bottom of it and uncover true facts only so as to not generate any unwarranted fears or hype. But I honestly feel that if people have been sold these sterile snakes without their knowledge,.. they SHOULD know about it.

Thank you both for your comments and input.

>>I don't know how true it is, but I read something like this(I think on pythons.net if it's still around) that something like this was being done in the early years of blackhead python keeping-if true, I don't see why it wouldn't/couldn't be done with Burms.
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

After reading this inquiry I decided to call my local Doctor and then Johnson and Johnson. Spermicide if injected into the blood stream would most likely cause a serious infection or immediate death to any mammal. If injected into the scotum or abdomen an infection would persue and most likely death would accure too. Injecting a foreign substnce into the body is always risky and even when antibiotics are injected there is a slight risk of causing a secondary infection if not done properly. Now Johnson and Johnson says that in experiment conducted nearly 30years ago on Lab animals injecting the spermicide into the scrotum area oftem cause infection which either led to death or the amputation of the scrotum. In snakes their has not been any scientific testing but the advise against injecting spermicide into any type of animal especially by a non accredited physician or acting physician. So to give you a straight answer it sounds like BUNK to me... I myself would think that anyone that thought this story up had something wrong with their head and maybe they should go get a katscan to see just how hard they bumped their head. Ladies and Gentlemen this appareantly is nothing more then an incredible poke at starting a terrible rumor.
JB
PS sorry for the spelling, gramar and lack of puctuation.. I am rushing

Hi, thanks for this input. It is refreshing to get any input that is contradictory to the apparent "rumors". I would rather dispell this as myth rather than prove it as fact any day of the year.
Just out of curiosity, what large breeder do you mostly buy from? I buy from Bob Clark and have never had any problems AT ALL.

>>After reading this inquiry I decided to call my local Doctor and then Johnson and Johnson. Spermicide if injected into the blood stream would most likely cause a serious infection or immediate death to any mammal. If injected into the scotum or abdomen an infection would persue and most likely death would accure too. Injecting a foreign substnce into the body is always risky and even when antibiotics are injected there is a slight risk of causing a secondary infection if not done properly. Now Johnson and Johnson says that in experiment conducted nearly 30years ago on Lab animals injecting the spermicide into the scrotum area oftem cause infection which either led to death or the amputation of the scrotum. In snakes their has not been any scientific testing but the advise against injecting spermicide into any type of animal especially by a non accredited physician or acting physician. So to give you a straight answer it sounds like BUNK to me... I myself would think that anyone that thought this story up had something wrong with their head and maybe they should go get a katscan to see just how hard they bumped their head. Ladies and Gentlemen this appareantly is nothing more then an incredible poke at starting a terrible rumor.
>> JB
>>PS sorry for the spelling, gramar and lack of puctuation.. I am rushing
>>
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

This may or may not apply depending on the difference between snake sperm and dog sperm but there might be a connection here. I thought I'd contribute this since no one else mentioned it.

The FDA just recently approved an injection that sterilizes the males without having to be neutered. It was in the local paper a couple weeks ago. I just did a quick search and found innumerable articles on the internet. Here's one: http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2003/ANS01221.html

We have some nasty chemicals where I work that sterilze males... or at least are known to be very toxic to the testes. I'll get the names and post them back. It's possible, but it'd be ALOT easier and safer and successful to put the snakes under and surgically sterilize them than to injext them with whatever and have many other systemic effects.