Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I figured I would post this here just in case someone familiar with this doesn't visit the retic forums.

I was speaking with a friend and fellow breeder the other day and he told me that he knew a guy that had purchased a lot of high end snakes from a breeder (name withheld) with the intention to breed them to eventually make money on the offspring,... and that year after year they would not breed for him much to his bewilderment,... and he somehow finally discovered that the breeder he had purchased them from had injected the males with spermicidal prior to sale to somehow render them sterile for life. Has anyone else heard anything similar to this? It's the first I had heard of it, and quite frankly it sounds so incredibly implausible that I immeditately discounted it as some form of horror story,.. but then I began to wonder. Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction, you know? I just couldn't see how a spermicidal would be effective for any extended period of time. Wouldn't it be filtered out of the snake's system in short time? And even if it were there and viable, how could it be detected? Blood tests? Com'mon, we need a scientist here to explain the micro details if possible. But I would most certainly dred this ever happening to me, so I would like to probe into this subject to find out any truths or otherwise. At the very LEAST to dispell this as pure nonsense so as to never worry about it again.

So has anyone anywhere ever had a problem with their stock from a particular person not breeding? If so I would be interested in hearing about it, as I'm sure other breeders would too.
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

I have recieved several emails from people who wish to remain annonomous at this time, that do verify several things about this story and seem to lend it credibility. This is very disturbing to me. There was too much detail as to how it was done for this to be made up, I feel. I have names but I will not post anything until I have solid confirmation and more evidence that this really happened, or even worse that it is still happening. For those that know something about this that are reluctant to post openly please email me at BrianSmithReptiles@hotmail.com and I promise I will never reveal anything you do not want revealed. And for those that may be doing this dispicable practice of sterilyzing male morphs, I would suggest that you either stop it at once or at the very least notify your customers that they are not buying snakes with a reproductive capability. Because if this is happening,... I'm about to blow the lid off of it.

>>I figured I would post this here just in case someone familiar with this doesn't visit the retic forums.
>>
>>I was speaking with a friend and fellow breeder the other day and he told me that he knew a guy that had purchased a lot of high end snakes from a breeder (name withheld) with the intention to breed them to eventually make money on the offspring,... and that year after year they would not breed for him much to his bewilderment,... and he somehow finally discovered that the breeder he had purchased them from had injected the males with spermicidal prior to sale to somehow render them sterile for life. Has anyone else heard anything similar to this? It's the first I had heard of it, and quite frankly it sounds so incredibly implausible that I immeditately discounted it as some form of horror story,.. but then I began to wonder. Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction, you know? I just couldn't see how a spermicidal would be effective for any extended period of time. Wouldn't it be filtered out of the snake's system in short time? And even if it were there and viable, how could it be detected? Blood tests? Com'mon, we need a scientist here to explain the micro details if possible. But I would most certainly dred this ever happening to me, so I would like to probe into this subject to find out any truths or otherwise. At the very LEAST to dispell this as pure nonsense so as to never worry about it again.
>>
>> So has anyone anywhere ever had a problem with their stock from a particular person not breeding? If so I would be interested in hearing about it, as I'm sure other breeders would too.
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>>It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Hi Brian, unfortunately I have nothing to add to this as far as info goes. When I originally saw your post I thought, "Can't be!" First I thought that this spermicide wouldn't have any long-term effects on reproduction. I guess I was wrong. My real question is, WHY? Is this some way for the breeders to reduce their competition? I don't get it. If this practice is going on without the buyer knowing about it, it is disgusting. Take care, Scott.

Well think about it this way if you make a morph that has only one pair of snakes that can reproduce the same thing the prices are going to stay high. Basically, they’re controlling the market value on the particular morph, which is against the law.

However, on the plus side this could end up to be a good thing if it was use to control the numbers of normal burms or other reptiles. That way only breeder would be producing and maybe the number of rescues would be needed. It would be kind of like neutering your dog or can which could eliminate the problem with reptiles that are released into non-native areas from thriving in places like Florida.

What this industry needs.Not to the point of sterilizing every male on the market but a percentage at least.Reason being is this,If you have less fertile males on the market then the majority of the rescues that come about wouldnt be.Heres what i mean.Instead of everyone being able to breed burms and flooding the rescues only the big breeders who are responsible enough to do so would be able to breed for resale.Also if the big breeders wouldnt breed so many at once that would possibly help but thats another story in itself.The average female burm has around 30-50 babies which average male majority,so if you was to sterilize half of those males then sell the sterile ones the problem would be cut in half (probability, not fact).Although on the other hand since females do get bigger than males then it would only be right to sterilize some females as well so then the problem with rescues would be about a quarter of what it is now.Regards Bill McLeod

And if you read my response to Tango (Marcia from giant feeders) via Ryan Shackleton's post in the retic forum, from a few hours ago on the same topic, you will see that I agreed with this precise aspect there too. We are on the same page with the burm and other large constrictor overproduction problem, please make no mistake there.

But what I was referring to here, is when a buyer forks out 10 or 20 grand for a pair or trio of the latest morph, and they are rendered unbreedable by a greedy manipulative breeder that only wants to control that morph and corner the market. Whole different can of worms than what you are talking about here. Still a valid point though.

>>What this industry needs.Not to the point of sterilizing every male on the market but a percentage at least.Reason being is this,If you have less fertile males on the market then the majority of the rescues that come about wouldnt be.Heres what i mean.Instead of everyone being able to breed burms and flooding the rescues only the big breeders who are responsible enough to do so would be able to breed for resale.Also if the big breeders wouldnt breed so many at once that would possibly help but thats another story in itself.The average female burm has around 30-50 babies which average male majority,so if you was to sterilize half of those males then sell the sterile ones the problem would be cut in half (probability, not fact).Although on the other hand since females do get bigger than males then it would only be right to sterilize some females as well so then the problem with rescues would be about a quarter of what it is now.Regards Bill McLeod
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It isn't "Ideas" that fail or succeed,... it is the "Sytstems" which are instilled to launch and sustain the idea that either fail or succeed.>[Me.]

Absolutely. The technology - if proven safe and effective- can be a blessing for rescue groups and to the animals who will be spared the suffering. It can also be used to lower the price on high dollar morphs because the breeder will know that particular snake will not produce competition in a couple of years. BUT the buyer must be made aware he or she is purchasing a sterile snake. I think that is the substance of this issue. To sell a sterile snake without disclosing the sterilization is, as Brian has pointed out, immoral and it is illegal.
And not to take this topic out of focus but I must voice my disagreement with Bill's opinion that only "big breeders" are responsible enough to breed. There is a refreshing move in the U.S. right now that is taking us back to the basics. Small farms producing good food with an emphasis on health and nutrition (an emphasis long surrendered by corporate farms in exchange for pofit), small stores selling reliable wares with a personal touch (an emphasis long surrendered by giant discount chains in exchange for profit), and I have to add for this industry, small breeders who have a personal interest and a sincere devotion. Bigger is not synonomous with better- that is the focus of this back to the basics movement. In fact, bigger has shown it is definitely worse in many areas of our society. Let's face it- some big breeders today got to their position because they had the money available- nothing else. They had the money and made the connections because cash talks. It is a business, plain and simple. All else being equal, I don't think there is a difference in anything but money and numbers between a sincere big breeder and a sincere hobbyist. I will never agree to anything that will limit the participation of the hobbyist- we are the reason there is a market. We support the development of morphs and many times we have paid the price for the unscrupulous breeders and opportunists. We can police ourselves and must be able to do so. Back to the sterilization focus.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles
GiantFeeders

Logically, if you were going to sterilize something to control the population, you'd sterilize just females. Because a female can only have one litter a year, but a busy male could probably have hundreds of offspring. That's why they're out shooting does and not bucks with birth control darts in my state.
But if you're going to do something like that (if you even can without hurting the snake) you ethically have to tell the buyer, which kind of defeats the point. (ie, if they want to breed, they're not going to buy an altered snake).
The story has a bit of an urban legend ring... I mean, how did the guy find out after the fact that the breeder had done this? Would a vet be able to prove it for sure?

So you're saying that a breeder should sterilize some animals and not others and then sell them to unsuspecting people? That's scummy, if I spend $10,000 plus on a snake to breed and make money and a breeder sterilized it I would be very pissed. Even if I spend $100 on a snake it's my choice to breed it if I want. And you're saying only "BIG BREEDERS" should be able to breed anything? Thats assanine. Maybe I misunderstood your post but thats what I got from it.