Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,

Found this (my first ever, anywhere) nice, 28 inch female zonata in the Columbia Gorge of WA on 19 Jun. 50-plus hours of searching over several years to find this baby. Sorry for the late post.

Scott R a y
Yakima, WA

Correction - date was 16 June

Now you've only got one WA snake left to list. Unless you already found the Masticophis.
Was she out or undercover? What time of day was it, and what was the weather like?

That's right, Gary. Still need Masticophis. I think spring is best for that one, over by Crab Creek and Saddle Mountain. Although Iknow of no recent reports from anywhere in the state. Some believe it has been exterpated or nearly so.

The zonata was found shortly after 4pm on a hot afternoon beneath a basalt flake on dirt in the area we finished up at on our trip down there in May.

Scott

Okay I just want to know something.... WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE ALL YEAR!!?!?!?!

I seriously mean this for the past 3 years in June/July and August I make a thread asking for where in Ellensburg to Vantage snakes would live (their habitats and what they live in/under/around), and for these 3 years I have not received 1 reply. Yet, always 1-2 weeks later there is a thread and it seems that all the people that know join in on them. Is "Snakes in WA" and "Herps in WA" too hard to understand or does everyone just liek ignoring me?!?!?!

Well doesnt matter anymore because the one place that I knew RattleSnakes/Garter/Bull/Gopher and Alligator Lizards live was destroyed last weekend and they were all killed on site, including 2 Rubber Boa's and a very large Sharptail snake.

I give up on this site, i have given much help, yet whenever I ask, I get nothing from no one.

Tony,

Washington is not a small state. The Columbia Gorge is over 100 miles south of the road between Eburg and Vantage, the area you are looking for herping information about.

Some time ago, I responded to a post from someone, maybe you, who asked for herping locations in the Eburg to Vantage area. You need to read this forum more often.

Scott

Tony:
I just sent you an e-mail message that may or may not eventually prove to provide some input you wish.

When you mention the place that was destroyed, do you mean that it was demolished for development or someone turned cover and killed the snakes you mention?

I am curious about the size of the Sharp-tailed Snake. Any chance you measured it?

Richard F. Hoyer

P.S. There is another forum that you may be interested in visiting so if you answer my e-mail, I will let you know about that situation. RFH

>>I seriously mean this for the past 3 years in June/July and August I make a thread asking for where in Ellensburg to Vantage snakes would live (their habitats and what they live in/under/around), and for these 3 years I have not received 1 reply. Yet, always 1-2 weeks later there is a thread and it seems that all the people that know join in on them. Is "Snakes in WA" and "Herps in WA" too hard to understand or does everyone just liek ignoring me?!?!?!

Tony,

I think if you read this forums carefully, you will find that many people don't respond to "where and how do I herp?" questions. The concern is that by telling others where to go and how to do it on a public forum, that will invite other less scrupulous commercial collectors to go there or lead some irresponsible herpers there.

Most of us learned how, when and where to herp through years of going out and failing before succeeding. That's the most rewarding way. If you read the original post, it took Scott 50 hours of searching over several years (not really any extraordinary effort, IMHO. Other species can take much longer to find!).

When you finally succeed, you feel a sense of accomplishment. Then you read these fora and someone wants you to divulge the fruits of your years of experience so they don't have to deal with the failures themselves, you find yourself less inclined to help. It isn't anything personal, nor is it herper elitism. The pleasure is supposed to be in the "hunt", not simply in the prize.
-----
Chris Harrison

I actually visit this forum every 1-2 days unless I am gone. Which ever thread you posted to, wasn't mine.

-Rich, I responded.

I know that they might not want people to come to their locations. But they put up a sign at the area, the land is free for all to explore. And maybe some will not help because it took them so long, but I think thats just silly to do. Especially with how few herpetologists there are out in world that just study them and rarely keep specimens.

No one is going to hold your hand and take you to the rock that the zonata is under. Would you really want that? Most of us who know how to find these animals worked very hard to get proficent at it. They are not rare and in many cases are the most common snakes in a given area. If you are not willing to do the legwork, do the literature research, hike for hours through tough country, get scraped, bruised, covered in ticks, dehydrated, and so on, then you don't deserve to find them. Trust me, if you do care enough to be persistent, the end reward will be far sweeter.

Fieldherper

Okay so your saying that I shouldnt give Rich any information on the Sharp Tail's (or hybrid gaters as he calls them), Just because I am the one doing all the work on finding them?

-No offense but that is a really selfish way to act to people, you should be GLAD to give help when it is needed. Its selfish.

Yes you are doing the work, but if people all did work for themselves without giving ANY help in return, then I bet this world wouldnt know of half the herps out there today, or know of most of this technology.

Its sharing information that makes people understand and learn themselves, I mean what if I one day found a whole new species of snake in the area, then just decided because I found it, I should be the one who knows where its at, what it looks like, what it lives under/in? I am guessing so, because I did all the work.

But if thats what you beleive then fine, I guess that whats makes you and me different. But the matter is that I love reptiles, and if I can help someone find a reptile, I will help them the best I can.

Rich, I know you told me not to be mean to people that will not give any help, BUT I will be, because not ever in Australia/Texas/Puerto Rico or Iowa were people as stubborn as you all have been, most people were glad to give me an area to look in, and were nice enough to tell me what they live in/under/around, and if they didnt know much, they told me what they knew.

And who said I havent done work to try and find these? I have called people, read books, looked at maps, looked at analysis maps, studied their habitats, Looked for weeks in the summer and fall (anytime i wasnt in school) looking for them. **** 2 weeks ago I went out to Eastern WA on my bike and looked all day for 3 days in hot bistering sun. Why? Because everything I looked at said they were active at this time of the year, and lived in that area. What did I find? NOTHING, because I did not know that it was too hot, and that most come out at night at that time, I am from Australia this is normal weather for most snakes I found back there.

-I am only 17 and I know almost NOTHING about snakes on this part of the world, and that fact is that the only ones I find alive are Garter Snakes now, all the others have been road kill or killed by something else. NO BOOK is going to say where to look, it will only show an area. People do know, and if anyone I have met so far knew, I wouldnt be asking here.

Im done at this place, the people at PacificNorthwestHerpSociety that swore at me, at least gave me some references.

I suggest you slow down a little bit. People have lots of reasons for not wanting to share info, especially on an on-line forum. Some of these reasons are real, others imagined. Arguing with people or begging is not likely to help either. Gleen what you can from the online forums, spend time in the field, develop relationships with herpers in your area, read books. Over time the pieces will come together.

Regarding books, it sounds like you could use some help in this area. Try to get your hands on Alan St. John's Pacific NW herp book. Also I hear there is a new book on mountain kings coming out which might be helpful.

Good luck,

Carl Brune (PS: I know little about zonata and less about the pacific NW.)

Carl:

The books Tony has read (and those I read a long time ago) mentioned the best time to find snakes is during warm, sunny weather.

The subject of when (where, and how) to conduct searches was discussed between myself and an individual on the PARC web site in private e-mails. For what it is worth to viewers of this forum, here is part of my e-mail to that individual.

"With respect to conducting searches for reptiles, the conventional wisdom has been to seek such species when it is sunny and warm. That may work for certain species and in certain regions but is not true here in the west for many species. It took me awhile in the 1960's to overcome my
'education' in that as I have found that such 'convential wisdom' is badly flawed."

If one wishes to try and find many species of snakes during daylight hours with mid summer warm weather, changes of success are greatly enhanced by starting out in the morning hours before
surface temperatures rise to the level that retiles retreat underground to seek their preferred temperature.

And contrary to the generally accepted conventional wisdom about warm weather and reptiles, I routinely conduct searches for snakes at any time of the year in which suitable collecting conditions prevail, and this includes during Nov. Dec. Jan. and Feb. here in northwestern Oregon. I have not failed to find the Rubber Boa every February since 1971. Generally, I will find three to five species of reptiles in Feb. when temperatures are in the mid 50's or above, sometimes below, and even when it is totally overcast and/or raining. How does that jive with what has been published in text books and field guides?

Richard F. Hoyer

Richard,

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I had surmised that he had been mislead by what he had read and that somebody had already pointed this out to him. I think the book I suggested would really be helpful, in addition to the usual field guide stuff it has anecdotes from the field with dates, methods, etc... Besides there's a nice picture of you in it as I recall.

In other words I agree with you 100%.

Carl Brune

you both need some help in seeing through a lie. Shane

It's also funny that you don't type like an Aussie. Oh wait.... Show some substance in the form of field reports....if you show a board that you know something (that you learned in your own right), you will find some that are willing to help you. Of course, if you don't provide that substance, and think this forum doesn't have a speck of cynicism, you must have missed some important lessons in life. How about a field report from Australia. Shane

...envious, actually.
-----
Jeremy J. Anderson
No one in the world ever gets what they want, and that is beautiful. Everybody dies frustrated and sad, and that is beautiful.

Nice find! I've been looking for 7-10 years with no luck, so I hope you put it back for others of us to find, (Or at least the offspring!). Besides, WA is only catch and release anyway :^(
Good herping,
Colin

Yes, she's right where I found her. WA forbids collecting herps of any kind.

Scott