Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello all,
A few threads down some good folks were talking about 03 babys growth rate and I was wondering why my babys seem to be growing slower than others. Now I know all about temps. humidity ect. and all mine are right where they should be. honestly my temps are kinda high at times cause I live in socal with no ac. and i have a temp gun that reads in the 90s every now and then so my question is could it be that im feeding them adult mice instead of rat pinks or pups i feed them two a week and about once a month i`ll give two of my males a lil extra (cause the females i have planed for them are ready to go) I have about one month supply of mice left after that should I go with the rat pinks? Has anyone noticed better results between the two? thanks
Rich

Whenever I get a baby I feed rats from day one. Rats have have more vitamines and good stuff for your snakes than mice. Rat hoppers and smalls have way more nutrious value than adult mice. IF YOU WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS FEEL FREE TO GIVE ME A CALL.

RUBEN MICHEL 650-714-9077

Hey!This is a question that everyone probably has their own opinion on,so I will just voice my opinion!!!First of all it is a proven FACT that rats are better for your boas than a mouse is,Why?Because a rat has more meat on it bones than a mouse does!For example if you take an adult mouse an put it beside a weaned rat pup,the rat pup looks fatter!I have always fed my boas rats period!I use the old measure that anything that is just a little bigger than the largest part of ones boa's body is a safe meal an then I just choose to feed the appropriate food or prey item!I feed every 7 days also!Here is a pic of an almost yearling female!I have fed her rats every 7 days by this method an look at her whammo!Some will argue that she has been power fed but how is this so if she has been kept on this feeding schedule all her life?An her feeding is also documented!Hope this helps!Thanks Eric[HYPOBOA]

I think the actual nutritional difference isn't that much. A nursing rat may have more nutrients than an adult mouse, but pound for pound, there shouldn't be much difference in adults of both species.

Without realizing it you are just probably feeding your snake more. You might be hesitant to feed a snake two mice, but wouldn't think twice about feeing it a rat that is a hair on the big side. A rat that is a hair larger in girth than an adult mouse probably weighs half again as much due to added length in the torso.

There is also a theory that the size of the prey plays a role in snake growth. That feeding the snake 1 large meal will make it grow more than feeing it 2 meals that weigh just as much as the large one. Don't know if there is any truth to this or not, but its an interesting idea.
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0.2 Normal Columbian
1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
0.3 Ball Pythons
1.0 Borneo Blood
0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Very understanding wife

If you look into the actual nutritional content, rats are better than mice, and rabbits are the BEST!

Practically, I have noticed a measurable difference in every single specie I have ever raised, with growth rates in favor of rats. I also find rats to be better mothers and more economical to raise (despite the obvious size difference). Boas cannot be fed mice forever, and eventually would have to switch to rats regardless. I find it easiest to feed rats from the first meal (usually a fuzzy).

I would think your biggest growth problem is the fact that you are feeding too small a food item! How large are the snakes again?

this is a link to a great paper concerning nutritional content for those who are truly interested:

www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

>>I think the actual nutritional difference isn't that much. A nursing rat may have more nutrients than an adult mouse, but pound for pound, there shouldn't be much difference in adults of both species.
>>
>>Without realizing it you are just probably feeding your snake more. You might be hesitant to feed a snake two mice, but wouldn't think twice about feeing it a rat that is a hair on the big side. A rat that is a hair larger in girth than an adult mouse probably weighs half again as much due to added length in the torso.
>>
>>There is also a theory that the size of the prey plays a role in snake growth. That feeding the snake 1 large meal will make it grow more than feeing it 2 meals that weigh just as much as the large one. Don't know if there is any truth to this or not, but its an interesting idea.
>>-----
>>0.2 Normal Columbian
>>1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
>>0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
>>2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
>>0.3 Ball Pythons
>>1.0 Borneo Blood
>>0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
>>0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
>>0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
>>1.0 Ferret
>>0.1 Very understanding wife

Thanks for the chart that was pretty cool. I took one factor that they used, overall Gross energy kcal/g and averaged it up for each of the 3 categories for both mice and rats. As you said rats are better with an average of 5.7. Mice had an average of 5.6. As I said, the difference isn't that much. That isn't a large enough difference, in my opinion, to account for the huge difference in growth rats by itself. I still believe that it is more the amount of food you are feeding.

Also, I never mentioned any growth problems or snakes. I'm like you I raise my own rats and start everything out on them. Pretty much for the exact same reasons you stated. Only exception to that is my sandboas. They are just too small for it.
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0.2 Normal Columbian
1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
0.3 Ball Pythons
1.0 Borneo Blood
0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Very understanding wife

Especially with boas or pythons that can be started on either hopper mice or pinky rats. up untill you get to a weanling rat size mice are better. They have more hair solid bone and better developed muscle tissue all of which ads to the value of the diet. Pinks and fuzzy rats do not have solid bone nor muscle tissue. As far as the growth rates once a snake has hit the size they can either take weanling rats or adult mice I agree they grow fatster on rats, reason being a weanling rat on averge weighs 40-60gms and adult mouse on average weighs 23-35gms. So when switching them you are feeding them more with a weanling rat as compared to an adult mouse even pup rats average 30-40gms however pup rats dont have the bone nor muscle the adult mice do.
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Jason & Danica
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Classic Dums frozen feeders

I know this would seem to be true, but if you look at Table 3 in the paper I mentioned earlier, you'll find that rats and mice are very similiar in mineral content, based on a dry matter basis

Adult mice have a slightly higher calcium content (less than a tenth of a gram more) than a similiarly sized rat. However, considering the acutal amount of time a boa would be fed that particular size of food item, I would view the difference as negligible.

K. Royer

I was not suggesting you had growth problems...I was responding to the original poster.

Anyhow, while the differences may seem minor, when you break it down it makes more sense:

Utilizing 10 gram mouse (hopper) or 10 gram rat (fuzzy)

Mouse 1.82 grams dry matter Rat 3 grams dry matter
0.80 grams protein 1.68 grams protein
0.43 grams fat 0.825 grams fat

The rat has twice as much protein and fat to offer than the mouse

Utilizing 30 gram mouse or 30 gram rat

Mouse 9.81 grams dry matter Rat 9.00 grams dry matter
5.47 grams protein 5.05 grams protein
2.31 grams fat 2.47 grams fat

At this size, they are pretty much the same

Utilizing one 50 gram rat or 2-25 gram mice
50 gram rat 16.95 grams DM
10.47 grams protein
5.23 grams fat
(2) 25 gram mice 16.35 grams DM
9.08 grams protein
3.85 grams fat

Again, the rat has more protein and fat

So, even when feeding boas the exact same gram weights of each type of food, you should see better growth rates overall with rats than with mice.

K. Royer

>>Thanks for the chart that was pretty cool. I took one factor that they used, overall Gross energy kcal/g and averaged it up for each of the 3 categories for both mice and rats. As you said rats are better with an average of 5.7. Mice had an average of 5.6. As I said, the difference isn't that much. That isn't a large enough difference, in my opinion, to account for the huge difference in growth rats by itself. I still believe that it is more the amount of food you are feeding.
>>
>>Also, I never mentioned any growth problems or snakes. I'm like you I raise my own rats and start everything out on them. Pretty much for the exact same reasons you stated. Only exception to that is my sandboas. They are just too small for it.
>>-----
>>0.2 Normal Columbian
>>1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
>>0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
>>2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
>>0.3 Ball Pythons
>>1.0 Borneo Blood
>>0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
>>0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
>>0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
>>1.0 Ferret
>>0.1 Very understanding wife

My apologies on the last part, I thought you were responding to me.

I definately agree with you that rats are better. I agree that there will be a growth difference. However, I still maintain that the DEGREE of growth difference is affected by simply MORE food rather than better quality. A person is going to show a larger growth factor by eating 1.5 hamburgers rather than eating 1 that is a little better quality.

Although protein is vitally important, I wouldn't discount the importance of fat content either. Whales, seals and other mammals that have to grow huge really fast have an enormously high fat content in the milk. Granted you can't take fat and turn it directly into muscle or other tissue, but the energy you get from it frees the body up to use more of the protein in that way. The human body, or any animal can only use so much protein per day in growth. Period. Anything else is waste, or broken down and stored as fat.

Travis Rose
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0.2 Normal Columbian
1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
0.3 Ball Pythons
1.0 Borneo Blood
0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Very understanding wife

I was just comparing pound to pound rats vs. mice, as people are constantly asking "which is better". On a quality standpoint, my opinion is for the rat.

I also agree that people who feed rats tend to feed more, which does contribute significantly.

I believe fat content is important in young growing snakes and reproducing females. In certain snakes, like Burmese pythons, that have a tendency to get obese, I try to keep the fat content down. Guinea pigs, for example, are ridiculously high in fat.

K. Royer

>>My apologies on the last part, I thought you were responding to me.
>>
>>I definately agree with you that rats are better. I agree that there will be a growth difference. However, I still maintain that the DEGREE of growth difference is affected by simply MORE food rather than better quality. A person is going to show a larger growth factor by eating 1.5 hamburgers rather than eating 1 that is a little better quality.
>>
>>Although protein is vitally important, I wouldn't discount the importance of fat content either. Whales, seals and other mammals that have to grow huge really fast have an enormously high fat content in the milk. Granted you can't take fat and turn it directly into muscle or other tissue, but the energy you get from it frees the body up to use more of the protein in that way. The human body, or any animal can only use so much protein per day in growth. Period. Anything else is waste, or broken down and stored as fat.
>>
>>Travis Rose
>>-----
>>0.2 Normal Columbian
>>1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
>>0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
>>2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
>>0.3 Ball Pythons
>>1.0 Borneo Blood
>>0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
>>0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
>>0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
>>1.0 Ferret
>>0.1 Very understanding wife

....
-----
0.2 Normal Columbian
1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
0.3 Ball Pythons
1.0 Borneo Blood
0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Very understanding wife