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This a keeper from my High Red Apachicola king project. I think I like it George.

Brandon Osborne

Just gorgeous!! Will that color folow thru into adulthood? How do you expect it to change? You must be sooooo proud of that little one.

Thanks. Check out the adult female that produced these below.

Brandon Osborne

I dont mean to stir the pot Brandon but that snake looks like it has some Floridana in it. Can you post pics of the breeders ? Its a pretty snake for sure it just looks like it has too many crossbars and too much head pattern ??? Maybe Im way off though.

Keith
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And if you don't mind me asking, where did the parents come from?

That's a beautiful snake and I love the red. Too bad it won't stay that pretty.

She was the little red hatchling I picked up a couple of years ago in St. Louis. She was mixed in with about 40 or 50 others of mixed pattern striped, blotched, and patterless. Her red stuck out like a sore thumb. The male I used is a Lemke high red that a friend of mine owns. I'll have to get some pics of his male to post. He's also a blotched animal, but threw some killer striped and patternless orange babies last year with another blotched Lemke animal.

I can't remember exactly when this pic was taken, but I think it was just prior to brumation last November. I'll try to get some new outdoor pics soon. It sucks living in an apartment complex. lol.

Brandon Osborne

That snake is pretty nice looking but it also looks to have some Brooksi in it. Notice the way the ontogenetic change has taken place on this snake. Its very reminescent of a Floridana (Brooksi). Most if not all Apalachicola Kings (Goini if you will) have the telltale half black scale that makes up the majority of pattern on those animals. I dont know with the way people bred things to whatever and dont keep good records or sell them as something else nothing suprises me anymore. Just another reason why I think hybrids are the cancer of the reptile hobby. Dont get me wrong her Brandon Im not blaming you I know you got that snake at a show and we are all slave to what the seller tells it is.

Keith
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Its very reminescent of a Floridana (Brooksi). Most if not all Apalachicola Kings (Goini if you will) have the telltale half black scale that makes up the majority of pattern on those animals.

Keith, if you can't see the half black scales, you should have your eyes checked.

Brandon

Keith, if you can't see the half black scales, you should have your eyes checked.

I can see them. Looks like all the scales on the interbands are seperated by a black line. The head markings look a little unusual to me but other than that it looks very similar to many of the other Apalachicola Kings posted on Keith's website.

Brandon, I think the reason some of us may question that snake is because many breeders have bred Florida Kings into the AK's. Hey it used to be thought that "goini" was a Eastern X Florida intergrade. Andy Barr is known for breeding Florida Kings with them as well as Gulf Coast Reptiles. What gets me is that GCR has sold axanthic and amelanistic "goini" without any mention of Florida Kings being bred into them even though that's what they told me they bred together.

This is why the only Apalachicola Kings I own are either wild caught (2 males found by me and one male by a friend) or CB from WC parents (2 females from Len Krysko). Before I bought the 2 females, I did some history and later even talked to the person that found the WC parents Len Krysko owns. So at least I know where all of mine came from.

Anyway, I'm kind of puzzled as to why nobody is going for more of the white in these AKs. Sure the red looks amazing as juveniles but they just turn into that ugly brownish pink as adults. Once I start mine breeding next year, I'm keeping the ones with as little to no red as possible. I'm hoping to eventually produce a completely patternless individual one day that's as white as can be. To me that's going to be one beautifil Apalachicola King!

Sean
GCR has always been up front with me on what they are selling. Besides everbody who knows the florida kings knows the amel and axanthic came from the brooksi. As far as I know GCR bred lavender brooksi(floridana) into the goini and sold them as such.
I am sure there have been breedings of floridana into goini but without a reason like introducing a reccessive gene it probably came from florida locales catching a snake in their backyard and crossing it into their goini or calif king. Hardly any way to control that and its probably something that has been going on since the 70's.

GCR has always been up front with me on what they are selling.

Maybe with you. But not on their classifieds they put online.

Besides everbody who knows the florida kings knows the amel and axanthic came from the brooksi.

How do you know everyone knows this? I didn't find out until I caled GCR myself.

As far as I know GCR bred lavender brooksi(floridana) into the goini and sold them as such.

Not true. They listed these "goini" only as such and never mentioned anything about Florida Kings being bred into them whatsoever. Buyers definitely did not know unless they asked and were told the truth. GCR misrepresented them from the get go.

Hardly any way to control that and its probably something that has been going on since the 70's.

Actually, it is something that can be controlled. And that is why I'm looking for wild caught specimens only. And only buying Cbs that cam from WCs. Who cares that is has been going on since the 70s. Doesn't change my mind about wanting pure AKs.

Actually, it is something that can be controlled. And that is why I'm looking for wild caught specimens only. And only buying Cbs that cam from WCs. Who cares that is has been going on since the 70s. Doesn't change my mind about wanting pure AKs.

You missed my point on this. You don't know if what you have is pure just because it is wildcaught or know the source.You can hardly call the cornsakes pure any longer as they breed to yellow rats and black ratsnakes in the wild and emoryi has been bred into them in captivity. What do you think happened to all those snakes people bred in florida since the 70's? Even non native species survive and reproduce there.

Also your assuming people walk around with thousands of dollars in their pockets to spend on a pair of snakes yet they supposedly have little or no interest to do any resaerch on them before hand? Not likely!~

"People" will/should know that axnathics and lavenders are bred into the goini because of the price the goiniXbrooksi lavenders command. If they are that new to the hobby they should not be so quick to spend high dollar for a snake without first doing a tiny bit of research. They should have gotten the cheaper lavenders brooksi or axanthic brookis before spending 4x that amount on something they don't know little or nothing about. Maybe GCR figured you knew so little they did not want to confuse you?

I cannot speak on what happened between you and GCR but you seem very angry because of what happened. Maybe what happened did happen but you should not shoot down a long time forum poster because he has produced a beautiful snake.

" "People" will/should know that.... "

I think everything should be labeled for what it really is. If it's a mix that shouldn't be hidden then those that don't mind can still buy it and the purists can avoid it if they wish. I realize this is getting way off the original topic here but I feel very strongly that deception about a product is never acceptable, even if it's becoming commonplace in American business. (I just bought a truck - whew! what a bunch of BS)

Sean said GCR misrepresented them in the ad and when he called them they told him the whole story. Is that correct Sean? If so I do not see that as misrepresentation.

I think everything should be labeled for what it really is. If it's a mix that shouldn't be hidden then those that don't mind can still buy it and the purists can avoid it if they wish. I realize this is getting way off the original topic here but I feel very strongly that deception about a product is never acceptable, even if it's becoming commonplace in American business. (I just bought a truck - whew! what a bunch of BS)

I understand what you are saying about buying a car but you are taking what I said out of context. If you are buying a snake for $2000. its a little different from buying a car. I think one should do a little research on the seller. We will always have unscrupulous rip off artists with us wether its cars, hybrids or "PURE"animals. The fact that some of you (maddmatt)want to buy something from a breeder who does not offer pure or wildcaught animals is about as left wing thinking as you can get.

Sean said GCR misrepresented them in the ad and when he called them they told him the whole story. Is that correct Sean? If so I do not see that as misrepresentation.

Just because I asked them if they were pure "goini" or not and they told me makes it not a misrepresentation? How many people do you think buy these snakes from them and simply assume they're pure "goini" only because that is what they are labeled as in their ads. By your logic, it sounds like I can sell anything and label it whatever I want and it's not misrepresentation if a buyer calls me and I tell them what it really is. So what is it to the buyers that don't ask?

Like I stated before I cannot speak for what happened between you and GCR and the phone conversation you had. Maybe you did not give them a chance(?) I don't know them well enough. I have no affiliation with them. I have spoken to them maybe once a year at the expo. When I did they were very open and honest as to what was on their table.
The largest snake breeder in the world (Mark Bell) has plenty of hybrids but they do not list them as such except for abbreviations like:

1)PGST-MCB

ask them and you find out it is...

..pyro/greeri/-sinaloan/thayeri X Miami Corn/blairs

PGRABS-PGRAHA

ask them and you find out it is..

...pyro/greeri/ruth/alterna/blairs/sinloan X Pyro/greeri/ruth/alterna/holbrooki/alterna

CP-HP

ask them and you find out it is..

...Corn/pueblin X Honduran/pueblin

Het alb calif

...a normal calif king but you still have to explain to some people what a heterozygous animal is.

Now how about a het Peibald Ball python? Should the seller expect the buyer does not know what a het or Piebald is? No, of course not. Because if someone is shelling out that kind of money the assumption is the buyer is well versed enough to what he/she is buying.

Like I stated before I cannot speak for what happened between you and GCR and the phone conversation you had. Maybe you did not give them a chance(?)

I did give them a chance. They told me what they were selling and I did not buy anything. The ads for axanthic and amelanistic "goini" were listed after I spoke with them and I had no interest in purchasing those snakes.

I don't know them well enough. I have no affiliation with them. I have spoken to them maybe once a year at the expo. When I did they were very open and honest as to what was on their table.

That's great. I give them credit for that. But when they have listed ads in the past as just "goini", I see that as misrepresentation. You still didn't answer my question in the previous post. If the buyer doesn't ask, is it misrepresentation or not?

The largest snake breeder in the world (Mark Bell) has plenty of hybrids but they do not list them as such except for abbreviations like:

I think it's a little easier to label an ad FL King X "goini" rather than Corn X Cal King X Sinaloan X Pyro X German Shepherd X Collie X Daschund X Poodle (doesn't that make it a mutt?)

Now how about a het Peibald Ball python? Should the seller expect the buyer does not know what a het or Piebald is? No, of course not. Because if someone is shelling out that kind of money the assumption is the buyer is well versed enough to what he/she is buying.

If a seller labels it as "het Piebald Ball Python, then they are not misrepresenting their animals. Doesn't matter if the buyer knows what het or piebald means...the animals are still being labeled correctly. If someone sells a FL King X "goini" and a buyer doesn't know what a "goini" is, it doesn't matter as the seller is also labeling the animal correctly.

Hi there Sean,
I agree with you completely here:
"Actually, it is something that can be controlled. And that is why I'm looking for wild caught specimens only. And only buying Cbs that cam from WCs. Who cares that is has been going on since the 70s. Doesn't change my mind about wanting pure AKs."
The hybridization* thing and the morph* craze has me avoiding even many "popular breeders" that are considered reputable. You are the first person I have heard on this forum that echoes my thoughts. F1s only please!
Know you are not alone!
Matt

The hybridization* thing and the morph* craze has me avoiding even many "popular breeders" that are considered reputable. You are the first person I have heard on this forum that echoes my thoughts. F1s only please!

Yeah the hybrid thing has me avoiding many breeders as well. It seems like you really have to do some work when purchasing a snake now especially if you want to have something pure. Not sure why these hybrid fans dislike those of us who want something pure. But if I want an Eastern King then hey I want a pure Eastern King.

As for the morphs, I plan on breeding some wide banded kings over the next couple years and will be breeding F1s, F2's, etc. But they will all come from the same locality. Anyone that wants to purchase some of my animals will be able to know exactly what the lineage of that animal is all the way back to the wild caught parents. Why? Because I keep notes and history on everything I keep, find, and breed. Since I'm keeping the data, I can share that with anyone.

Thats really screwed up!
Thanks Bluerosy!

Is that its the value that makes most people that misrepresent on purpose.THere are many times where simple laziness as well as f2 and beyond...purity issues do become moot.I have dealt with NA milks for unpteen years now and have to defend locale animals all the time STILL.Problems occur when a phenotype becomes the accepted NORM,leaving no room for naturally occuring genetic variation.Its the breeder that makes the animal,not the other way around,Jeff

that "other site".

I feel for you bro!

Keith, you could be right about the Floridana blood in there. I'm pretty sure the female is of pure stock, at least judging by her and her clutchmates, I'm not 100% certain of the Lemke animal. The Lemke animals hold a lot of orange as adults, but there's something different about them. Like I said, I'll try to get pics soon.

Brandon

Brandon,

I wanted to let you know I admire the way you conduct yourself!
It takes a lot of courage and integrity to breed an animal you take great pride in, then show it off here, and then, to be willing to re-examine possible evidence of the origin of your animal as being unpure.

I am so damned impressed with you and your actions!

You may have lost a little kudos on the animal, but, in my mind you bring us all up a notch (particularly breeders and the herp industry) by your ability to consider the evidence, consider out loud here, and admit something that must be painful to realize here in front of everyone. Bam!!!

You are a true, true man my friend!

Matt

Brandon,
I do not even know what you have, I don't know enough about easterns, Floridana, or AK to scale count or whathave you.
So I am opinionless about whether it is or not, maybe the jury is still out for you and others on this. Just wanted to let you know that I am not commenting onthe animal but in your conduction of yourself! Totally Awesome!
Its really cool you are willing take in other opinions and to consider them especially in the situation you have here. A very rare trait!
Take Care
Matt

This one is also a keeper female. It would just figure, the best looking one is always the runt. At least she's a mean bugger.

Brandon Osborne

it's a gorgeous young serpent, but the banding and also the pattern of coloration on the head scales hints at some floridana...phenotypes are not always expressed in one generation so the parents alone are not indicative of the genome of the lineage from which your hatchling came - a simple Punnett's square won't do with all types of breeding these days.

I'm not even so sure that there isn't more Eastern in it than you may think; my now 4 year old female, CB Kevin Enge S. Georgia/N.Florida had nearly that much red herself...I was so freakin' amazed that I bought her on the spot because of her size (large for a hatch) and the sreamin' red on her, which she kept until about 14 months.

Not to piss on your parade or anything...it's a gorgeous snake, but that red's going to fade in a year but watching the change to whatever she settles into will be cool as hell!

-John

As we all should know, these kings are the most variable of the common kings. Over the last 13 years, I've raised up about 30 of these snakes.....many before they were really even popular. It just amazes me that one can tell the lineage of a snake just by a picture, without really knowing what's in it to begin with. If the adult pic I posted below is not a PURE blood animal, then none of them are. This snake just happened to hatch out of with striped and patternless animals. I just picked this snake because of the color. Since the general consensis is that these snakes are all mutt/junk, I'll just start breeding whatever will go together. I'm tired of all the purists picking everyone else's animals, while breeding this locale kings with that locale king and still calling them locale kings. This is one of the reasons I stopped posting on this forum for a while. I believe it's time to say goodbye once again. To much nit picking for me. I could nit pick all day, but I don't choose to.

Peace and have fun.

Brandon Osborne

Since the general consensis is that these snakes are all mutt/junk, I'll just start breeding whatever will go together

The general consensus? I didn't know that. Either way, the Eastern and the Apalachicola King are my two favorite snakes. In fact they're the only kinds of snake I even keep besides two Florida King juveniles. I think the fact that the AKs are so variable and that they intergrade with the Eastern King makes them more than fascinating. Maybe it's because I live in the region where AKs are found and I'm desperately hoping to find a WC female to go with one of my WC males too. And they're just so hard to find!

They do not own the forum - and your snakes are gorgeous. Who says that "locality specific" is all that matters? If anything, a lot of these "locality specific" collections are going to be inbred for generations - whereas you are "dicing up" the gene pool. By the way, I was reading about "rafting" the other night - which is when animals float downa waterway and then intermingle with other populations - so it does happen in the wild anyway. Mixing and matching (and they are the same species after all) those Apalachicola and Florida Kings is fine.

Your red and black apalachicola king snakes will sell fast in the classifieds and at shows - and will likely drive more people to want to keep AK's.

Don't let the National Zoo curator "wannabe's" rain on your parade.

Those really are some cool snakes!

Peter Jolles

Brandon, I have saved every picture you have posted on this forum in the last couple years. You are missed when you are not present on this board. I'm not one of the experts here but I have learned so much from everyone and I trust your opinions and advice and try my best to apply it to my collection.

and sadly, many have also spread much incorrect information publicly to boot.

Unfortunate for many of the newer keepers who have and can easily be mislead and confused by this type of behavior.

Rich Hebron

Very, very well put. Peter is right on.
Brandon, those animals you produced are stunning examples of how variable these kings are. Keep at it!!

I think they are gorgeous. Your pics and Keiths easterns are the main reason I check this forum darn near every day. Yes some people are obsessed with locales to the square mile and that is fine I like to look at them too but I especially like to see the drop-dead gorgeous and the unusual. As an open forum the nit pickers have a right to express their views and so do I. And my opinion is I love looking at your snakes and request that you continue to post as many as you have the time and energy to post. Keep them coming.
If you can please show some pics of the adults with some form of size reference. I LOVE the big guys!!!!

Brandon, whatever you've been doing all these years, keep it up. You have without question some of the finest looking and robust kings I've ever laid eyes on. I always look foward to your photos as well as your comments & opinions. It would be a serious void to not have you as part of these forums.

Steve

Many people on this forum appreciate your input and pictures. I understand you getting pissed but don't let it get to you. I think this forum would be at a great loss to not have you participate. Some of these guys probably got so caught up in trying to decide if other pics on the net were implants or real and now they have to anylize everything they wish they could get thier hands on! Tom

Please don't let the actions of a couple of people drive you off this forum. I think it's obvious by the response that many people want you to stay. Some people, in their enthusiasm for the hobby, tend to go a little overboard sometimes and overanalyze animals. Although there has been some great research done lately, I don't think anyone knows with 100% certainty the exact taxonomy of the Apalachicola King anyway. Whatever the case, your animals are beautiful and the loss of you on the forum would be regrettable. Please stick around,
Todd

"Some people, in their enthusiasm for the hobby, tend to go a little overboard sometimes and overanalyze animals"

Well put. Those of us (I'm including myself) that do value locality purity know we have to take into consideration as much information about a snake as we can get. That includes appearance of the specimen in question and the parents and siblings and sources of the lineage. We all admit there were misrepresented snakes sold many years ago so unfortunately even the sincerely honest breeder may unknowingly have impure genetics. Questions about parentage are natural and reasonable. Hopefully no one will take it personally.

Outstanding red to say the least. Some will lose the intensity but every now and again one keeps it. Nice....

Rich Hebron

Very nice, I believe we have parallel interests Mr. Osborne. I look forward to seeing pics of that snake as it matures. Again, good work.

Will

>>This a keeper from my High Red Apachicola king project. I think I like it George.
>>
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>>Brandon Osborne
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld