Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi there friends,

With the insurgence of people lately posting/contacting me about their sick tree monitors(not talking about you guys who post here, who look for info in advance..)that they just went out and bought on impulse, I have been doing some thinking about the industry in regards to these WC indo gems.

Tree monitors are not imported in mass quantities, like many of the african species are. I would say that there is a good/high demand for these animals, due to their sheer beauty. The problem that I have with this aspect of the industry, is that importers/wholesalers/dealers are selling these guys(especially this "season", for very lowball prices.

While you may think, hey, lower prices make them more affordable for everyone... I disagree with this way of thinking when dealing with wild caught, high maintanence animals.

I feel, that if prices were much much higher, it would discourage many of these "beginner" people who contact me and others, from buying such an animal on impulse, which usually is a death sentence for the animal, and one less animal to have the chance to produce cb offspring. Please keep in mind, I am not saying you shouldn't obtain one, I'm just saying that people with no experience/knowledge should not jump right into ownership of one of these fragile animals.. By keeping the prices very high, this would attract only the most dedicated or experienced people, who are willing to put the time and money into setting them up in the best manner possible, in the hopes of breeding them.

While both types of people may have the same goals- producing captive bred gems, I feel that there is a significant difference between the person who pays 800 bucks for an animal, and houses it in a 50 dollar aquarium, and the guy who is going to pay more for the animal, and spend a hell of a lot more time and money setting them up properly/suitably..... and only one of these people may actuallly succeed in their goal..

If importers were to import fewer, but increase the prices significantly, they could still make their profits, and help encourage captive breeding(although, unfortunately, this probably would not be good for the importer, coming from a monetary standpoint). There are many ways of making money in that end of the business, and I just feel that they are doing things the wrong way.

It is just sad to see/hear about so many of these beauties dying each year, in the hands of people who did not do their research, or knew anything about the animal... they just saw one on a table at a show while walking by, and said, "ah, what the heck.... it's only a couple hundred dollars... he can live with my tokay geckos in their 55gallon aquarium". If market prices were different, I think that we might have seen more cb success by now, for many of the females(already limited in number), would not have perished, or fell into the "wrong" hands".

Please understand I'm not telling who can and who can't keep these awesome animals, I'm just saying that they are difficult animals to keep, let alone breed, and I think that they should be left to more experienced/advanced people who are willing to supply anything necessary for their success. I think market prices greatly influences the hobby/herpetocultural aspect of this...

This applies to many other asian monitor species- rudicollis, dumerilli, jobiensis, indicus, doreanus, etc...as well as many different genera of reptiles as well...

What do you guys think??? any comments?

Thanks for reading, I'd really like to hear people's opinions on this topic... the forum's been kind of dry lately anyways...

Take care everybody, have a great day...

bob
The Odatriad

Hey, wassup Bob

You have just made a very good point and i applaude you for speaking on it but i think this should apply across the board. For example: V. Exanthematicus, Niles, Salvator,Salvadorii and others also suffer the same fate more often than not in captivity due to there vast distribution and low end pricing and are becoming more and more assessible to inexperienced keepers by the day. Though these animals aren't as rare as some of the species you named/mentioned and are bred more so in captivity, the numbers bred will never catch up to or surpass the number of these animals that falls into the wrong hands or are killed being imported into the country each year. So a hike in the price would surely make people more wary of buying them on impulse and take keeping them a bit more seriously.

PS. I pray for the day that monitors are bred enough in cativity to put the import/exporters out of business.

Cheers
-----
James Grigsby - " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

salvadori... however, I feel that there is a difference between the import status of the animals I mentioned and niles,savs, and salvators... While there is not question about it, it would be nice one day to no longer have imports, but that is far off in the distance.

The difference between the asian species i described and the africans, is that the africans have been exported by the millions over the past few years, whereas the quantity of tree monitors, and other indo monitors, is far less, probably in the lower thousands. The difference here is the supply. If there is a limited supply of something, and there is a demand for it, suppliers can charge whatever they want, and there will usually be someone willing to pay the prices... the type of people changes as you go higher up in price, but nevertheless, you will be able to sell them without a problem. When you look at the africans, especially this year, it seems as if too many were imported, and dealers were basically giving them away, because of the inconvenience of having these animals just sitting around a festering at their facilities... I do not think that they would be able to sell a savanah monitor for 500 bucks, let alone the several thousand that some tree monitors can exchange hands for... That is the difference between the two groups...supply/availability.

I would have to say that there were probably only about 100 or so of each species- blues and blacks imported this year, with all the blues being illegal, as well as the 30something emeralds that were illegally brought in as well... this is far less and insignificant when compared to dealers alone getting in 1000 baby savanahs and niles...

But don't get me wrong, african species need protection just as much as any other monitor, it's just unfortunate, that as long as there are cheap animals, there will be cheap keepers, buying them as well... If african nations stopped exporting, would there still be a market for sav's, if their price jumps up to 700bucks?? I doubt it, as people would simply replace that "bargain animal" with another, maybe a $45 mangrove monitor or something....

It's all supply and demand, and if dealers would increase the prices of their rare/limited availablity animals, i think we would see more strifes towards captive propagation of some of these species...

Cheers everyone, take it easy,

bob

"It's all supply and demand, and if dealers would increase the prices of their rare/limited availablity animals, i think we would see more strifes towards captive propagation of some of these species... "

Moving numbers are critical here as with most industries. This is especially true when dealing with living things.

If an importer raises prices on the animals, they may not sell as fast which means that more will die in their posession. Not to mention the cost to feed, house, and otherwise care for the animals while in there posession. All of these factors lead to loss of income.

Moving inventory is key.

Someday you will find out just how few people are interested in $2000 prasinus. Not just the ones who say they are interested, but the ones who will actually put up the money.

but there always are. what about the hank molts and ben siegels? what about ghi (matt) or herps limited? all of those people have high sticker prices.

two of those import in numbers. and those numbers have high prices.

then there is dnj, who do both (import in numbers with high and low prices). what about them?

what about la reptile? it is impossible to buy from them and they also have high and low sticker prices. so what about them?

maybe it isn't about numbers. maybe everybody could import fewer animals with higher price tags. like selling fewer niles and savs for higher prices. perhaps closing indo for good. there are enough animals in the country now.

andrew

But the world is totally full of, perhaps and maybes, which are of no particular value.

For instance, if you could only eliminate the "the maybes and perhaps" then maybe and perhaps, your own husbandry would be a lot farther along then it is now. Actually it surely would, no perhaps or maybes about it. The point is, its more helpful to eliminate maybes, then add them. Heck a blind, braindead mouse could add maybes and perhaps.

About your, Theres always an exception of course there is. There are very good importers/dealers/petshops too, some have produced far more species and numbers and take better care of monitors then most here. Are they the exception? or is the subject of this thread the exception?

That point of that is, there are always exceptions, but thats not the subject or point of the thread. You do know, you can yea but all you want, but you should ask yourself, what good is that. What does that add to the mix?

Mr. Molt is a longtime friend of mine, while he surely has done some questionable things, and has paid dearly for them, the herp world is without a doubt a far better and more entertaining place because of him. Some of my fondest memories are listening to his stories. I look forward to seeing him in a couple weeks. FR

true, my husbandry should be farther along then it is now, no you didn't directly say it but it is true.

i was not saying anything bad about hank molt. i don't care about his past. actually, i quite enjoy his site, it would be fun to meet him someday. his rattlesnake stories on his site are very enjoyable.

andrew

You should ask him about being searched when leaving Australia, I almost peawatered my pants, funnyist thing I ever heard.

I have not been to his site, I don't go to anyones sites. Not his, not yours, not mine, if i had one. Somebody said I did. wouldn't know. I only know Hank from personal, person to person contact, arggggggggg very entertaining. FR

And you could have mentioned it, if I could only eliminate the, perhaps and maybes, my husbandry could be a lot further then it is. You see, thats are job, get rid of those deadend avenues that lead to nowhere. Cheers FR

thanks FR, you know (i am sure you do)I think you are an ahole at times. but i learn a crap load from you. it is also humorous.

cheers, andrew

we put on two different pairs of sun glasses everyday. you know our worldviews are different. our paradigms confuse us into thinking the other person is way off when in fact we only think that because of the way we see the world.

hmmm, our behavior is effected by our environment, kind of like our monitors.

lol, andrew

I do enjoy being an Ahole so. I see no particular joy or benefit being nice to people who are not nice to me.

About the world, There is no possible way for us to see it the same. I am older and have been around the world many times. You are younger and have been no where, of course our worlds are different.

About the world of monitors, Again, I have been around the world and seen monitors and have enjoyed the experience of generations upon generations of many species in captivity. Again, you have not, also again, our experiences would not allow us to think the same.

Andrew, you must understand, the only thing I have against you is, you seem to want to think like me(someone with experience) without the benefit of experience. Thats very hard for me to understand. The reason is, experience is not only the good, nice, lovely things, but also, the bad, nasty, awful things. You see, its that combination that allows me to think like I do.

For instance, I cannot hold much respect for your accomplishments, no offense, but many like you have come and gone, all saying the same things and waiting the same things. All jumping the gun of experience, only to have their lack of experience kick their bums.

If you survive the rigors, pain and joy of time, I surely will have respect for that.

Experience also taught me this, I have been around herpers for decades and decades, in truth, its the different ones that I remember and enjoy, not the ones who are afraid of being different. Cheers FR

There are always exceptions, but I was looking at the industry as a whole.
I would bet that some of those companies you mentioned import for other businesses as well, most likely local shops. I know Ben has a retail shop as well.
Besides, not sure what you consider high prices, but Ben has three ads in the classifieds right now, $95 timors, $150 crosses, and a $600 pil.
$600 for a Pilbara that would sell for $3k as a baby? I wonder if he is having a hard time moving it.....

those are some low prices. i guess i got over the pilbara males and kimberly males being at low prices when pairs were still selling for a reasonable price. it does make one cringe a little at first though after spending much more for a female.
capitalism is gut wrenching at times.

andrew

I really do not know what to say to you, other then, man are you slow. The industry, as you call it, is about numbers, and numbers equal dollars, the rest is in your mind.

Not to surprise you but, this has been said, a thousand times. I know, I say that a lot, but its true.

Why I think your a tad bit slow is, the tree monitors are not different then any other species. Come on, think a little, there are more people breeding members of the prasinus group, than there are breeding, peachies, bluetails, dums, rudis, etc. Why are prasinus different? Why do you call them "gems"? oh I know, gems=giant excreted mouse sh#t)(joke laugh)

I know, cause you like those skinny boney things. Well I have to tell you, when I jumped into the monitor world, all the indos had been bred. I was asked this question by Daniel Bennett, he asked why the Ozzie monitors were easier, I said they weren't, I then pointed him to all the indo breeding and muliticlutching records in his book. Then I pointed out how few records of the aussie monitors. Now you look around and theres lots of were not here before. Yes, the reason is simple.

They were worth breeding(all the money and effort required) because, there was no low dollar competition. Monitors are realitively expensive to breed. Yet they are all the same.

I really have no idea, what you understand about monitors and the pet industry, but you may want to go and look into it. The pet industry has nothing to do with any species being rare or dissappearing. They will disappear when their habitat is gone. And that has nothing to do with people collecting them for pets. In fact, if you understood other parts of the world, you may understand, that if something is not helpful, then its eliminated. That is, if monitors are not of use, they kill them for other reasons. They are still going to die.

A horrible thought, all the the prasinus group alive and living in nature will be dead in the next handful of years. Whats important is, will more be produced. Think about that and concentrate on that.

I remember an old old snake breeder(Tracy Barker) and I, were having a similar conversation many years ago, she said, I remember when breeding bloods and balls was hard. Yes, when they were wild caught, they were hard too. Heck, I remember when breeding Cal kings was hard. Funny how time changes things.

Sorry for roaming but, again the point is, prasinus is no different then any other species. We(private keepers) can and would breed them if allowed. You can figure what allowed means. A hint, its more then one thing.

One more related thing, right now, your just starting and your the bomb. But if you have the nads(no actual dollar sense) to stay at it, in a few years, you will be producing lots of those monitors. Only now, you will not longer be the bomb, you will be some commerial a hole, that only cares about the buck, hahahahahahahahahahahaha how funny. As funny as it is, its true, but you will still be you. your right, this is a funny industry. FR

FRank, I was not referring to the animals status in the wild as being "rare", I was referring to their numbers in captivity as being rare. All I was saying was that the importers/dealers could get more for the animals in question, and this would encourage dedicated people to the species.. Nothing about wild populations/deforestation/skin trade. I also made reference to many species, even left many out, not neccessarily just prasinus type animals.. Yes, I understand that numbers is money, but when there isn't many of something, prices can be higher...

"I remember an old old snake breeder(Tracy Barker) and I, were having a similar conversation many years ago, she said, I remember when breeding bloods and balls was hard. Yes, when they were wild caught, they were hard too. Heck, I remember when breeding Cal kings was hard. Funny how time changes things."-

-ok, so, if you're saying that breeding wc's is difficult, wouldn't it make sense to encourage experienced, dedicated people to give a stab at starting up a cb lineage, as opposed to the people who are going to keep them in one of your "beef jerky"cages??

As for your aussie animals, yes I know there was no low price competitors, as they were probably illegally obtained to begin with. Lucky you... If i were to go and ship some giganteous or glebopalma over here from europe (illegally), I wouldn't have any lowball competition either..

I am talking about animals who are readily exported/imported, and how their prices reflect the amount of care given to them by most keepers..

And about being "the man", you need to pull your head out of your arse, for I am not bragging anything, nor have i really accomplished anything, nor am I telling people what TO do, I am merely sharing my experiences(limited as they may be), in an effort to give people something to look at and take for what it's worth... I don't see many people actually doing that here or anywhere else... Why don't you get on here and share your experiences with beccari, for you did breed them didn't you?? You would definately be able to share more help and words of wisdom than I could...I am a hobbyist who keeps monitors for the love of it, not monetary purposes. Good day Frank...

FRank, I was not referring to the animals status in the wild as being "rare", I was referring to their numbers in captivity as being rare.

I am sorry Bob, but when talking about prasinus type monitors, you are always adding conservation to the mix. You see, its about what the rule makers think

All I was saying was that the importers/dealers could get more for the animals in question, and this would encourage dedicated people to the species..

See Rsgs post above

Nothing about wild populations/deforestation/skin trade. I also made reference to many species, even left many out, not neccessarily just prasinus type animals.. Yes, I understand that numbers is money, but when there isn't many of something, prices can be higher...
Come one dude, they can be higher, or lower, or whatever, they are indeed what they are.

"I remember an old old snake breeder(Tracy Barker) and I, were having a similar conversation many years ago, she said, I remember when breeding bloods and balls was hard. Yes, when they were wild caught, they were hard too. Heck, I remember when breeding Cal kings was hard. Funny how time changes things."-

-ok, so, if you're saying that breeding wc's is difficult, wouldn't it make sense to encourage experienced, dedicated people to give a stab at starting up a cb lineage, as opposed to the people who are going to keep them in one of your "beef jerky"cages??

I am not sure any of this is about making sense, does it? dang another point I missed?

As for your aussie animals, yes I know there was no low price competitors, as they were probably illegally obtained to begin with. Lucky you... If i were to go and ship some giganteous or glebopalma over here from europe (illegally), I wouldn't have any lowball competition either..

I do not think you know what your taking about, please research before you speak. I get the feeling if it was illegal, I and many other breeders, would have been busted, you see, fish and wildlife has been here. You my find friend, should read the laws. Also, you refer to them as my aussie monitors, I wish I would have known they were all mine, I would have been charging rent to all those others who have them. Heck, I will send a giant bill to Australia.

I am talking about animals who are readily exported/imported, and how their prices reflect the amount of care given to them by most keepers..
I know what your saying, been there done that, said that a thousand times, isn't it fun playing catchup?

Actually this is the subject of your post and it only gets two sentences, how sad. You see, captive breeding has nothing to do with importing. They are entirely two different and seperate industries. Ok, captive breeding is a hobby, not really an industry.

And about being "the man", you need to pull your head out of your arse, for I am not bragging anything, nor have i really accomplished anything, nor am I telling people what TO do, I am merely sharing my experiences(limited as they may be), in an effort to give people something to look at and take for what it's worth... I don't see many people actually doing that here or anywhere else... Why don't you get on here and share your experiences with beccari, for you did breed them didn't you?? You would definately be able to share more help and words of wisdom than I could...I am a hobbyist who keeps monitors for the love of it, not monetary purposes. Good day Frank...

About being the man, I did not include anything about that in my post, what on earth were you reading, or better yet, what the fudge is in your dang head. I said, you are the bomb. Bomb does not equal man. Again your confusion is scary.

About my head up my arse, I will see you in daytona and we can discuss that there. Over that rum and coke you owe me. But I will say, where my head is at as a lot more to do about monitors that what the heck your talking about. Even if its up my arse.

About me breeding becc's, been there done that, but such a long time ago, along with several other indos. The husbandry was exactly the same as any other monitor. Actually I may have developed the ozzie stuff after and from the indo stuff. Yea I think i did. Cheers and beers, FR

P.s. get a sense of humor, dude get over it, oh my.

So how are you going to accomplish this? Tarrifs? Taxes? Rest assured that the importers will adjust the prices of their goods to reflect the market price, and if the market will support $800 for a prasinus, that's what people will charge, and that's what they will pay. To increase the price, you either need to increase the demand (unlikely), decrease the supply (import quotas? Wipe out their natural habitat?), or impose artifical restrictions like the aforementioned taxes or tarrifs.

We can all dream, but to accomplish anything, we need a plan ...

Luke

I was concerned with the same type of thing, I suggested as a thought, what we(if we could) limit imports to say 25 or so(any small number) per species. Also to increase the number of species allowed in.

This would have done what you said, increase the profit per animal for the exporters/importers and force us to breed them. Remember, it was just a thought.

Well what happened was not pretty, everybody had a hissy fit, and babbled on and on, about all sorts of things.

As what happened to your post, there was no imput along the lines of the thread, just fighting. One group even suggested I wanted that, so that I could get all of them, hahahahahahahaha how stupid.

The reality is, no one wants us to captive breed monitors for any reason. That is, if it causes monitors to be expensive. All and all, it makes a cheap product, expensive. The masses hated it. They simply want a cheap product.

Now on the other hand, if you could come up with a way to underprice the imports, boy you would have something. The only way I know to do that is, having the government subsidize captive breeding. But alas, they could care less. FR

I have a "tiff" with all of it, but I don't worry or think about it too much, cause its a waste of energy.

You have to REALIZE big importers could give 3 turds about animals. They only care about the bottom line. I'm acquaintanced with a couple of big importers here in FL. and you should see what they say and do while their packing and sending off to petshops.Not to mention, how they keep them. Remember they sit in bags while the exporters get documentation to ship them out. It's all a big race for them to get their money before the animal crokes.They don't care if its an albino prasinus or an ugly mud turtle.Well ok maybe an "albino" prasinus.So have fun getting through to them.

I am guilty myself of importing a couple of times, but it was always done in the best interest of the animals I was receiving. I've only done it for my personal stash or friends. Either it was something I couldn't get here or a good deal, or both(even dealing with fwc and customs myself and all the other crap myself, I hate brokers ) I also dealt with exporters that gave a crap and had some integrity and those are a handful at most.

I have WC and so do you. So we're both guilty of buyin in. Maybe you can beat the importer to the punch. Have fun!