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This is from BIOGEOGRAPHY AND PATTERN VARIATION OF KINGSNAKES, LAMPROPELTIS GETULA, IN THE APALACHICOLA REGION OF FLORIDA
D. Bruce Means1 and Kenneth L. Krysko2

Adults that possess interbands nearly the same intensity as crossbands appear to be non-banded. However, they can be distinguished from truly non-banded morphs on the basis of the difference in morphology between the light-colored crossband and interband scale types. Within a light crossband scale, light pigment is separated from dark pigment by a sharp, straight line; within a lightened interband scale, the edge of the light pigment is rounded, not straight (Figure 11).

Figure 11. Dorsal scale morphology illustrating characteristic straight line separation of light and dark pigments in light crossbands versus round separation in the interbands

Maybe Im just Blind but I see that the interbands and the bands have the same lightening taking place

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- Here is a typical Brooksi Kingsnake and how there scale lightening looks.

notice how the areas have a more rounded lightening area as opposed to Goini with the more straight line division in the crossbars. Im not saying the areas that are orange or reddish on Brandons animal look odd but the areas where the pattern of black has lightened. Its more like Floridana.

Keith
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I have several of this "morph"from GC and the adults seem to have the same lightening affect-they think it a hypo gene.I am not questioning the line,I am saying maybe a strain relating to this "morph"affect may be the culprit with this scale affect more than any certain impurity.Jeff

np

I wouldn't be surprised if those Blaze Phase did carry the hypo gene. Fact is, GCR has bred FL Kings into "goini" to produce other morphs. That's a very pretty snake but if it came from GC I would guess it's not a true "goini".

Andy Barr told me he's been breeding FL Kings into "goini" and then breeding those offspring back to "goini" for years. He said after several generations, he can't tell which ones had FL Kings bred into them. Scary thought. Even worse, he told me a story how he had some true "goini" offspring and some others that had FL Kings bred into them seperated in two different containers. His dog knocked both containers over and he couldn't tell which was which. So all of these got sold off and who knows what people got. Just another reason why I don't buy "goini" from anyone.

Andy Barr told me he's been breeding FL Kings into "goini" and then breeding those offspring back to "goini" for years. He said after several generations, he can't tell which ones had FL Kings bred into them. Scary thought. Even worse, he told me a story how he had some true "goini" offspring and some others that had FL Kings bred into them seperated in two different containers. His dog knocked both containers over and he couldn't tell which was which. So all of these got sold off and who knows what people got. Just another reason why I don't buy "goini" from anyone.

LOL! That sounds like Andy.

But if you think he is the ONLY person in Florida doing this you are sordedly mistaken. Breeders in Florida have been doing this and releasing them into the wild populations for decades.

Just go to the Florida show in Tamp in sept. You will see tons of fake floridana/goini by many many florida resident breeders who turn up for that show. They are all locale breeders from florida and after talking with them you will discover the goini has been crossed and released since the 70's.

But if you think he is the ONLY person in Florida doing this you are sordedly mistaken. Breeders in Florida have been doing this and releasing them into the wild populations for decades.

I posted several times how I know GCR is doing the exact same thing....not sure why you thought I think Andy Barr is the only person breeding FL Kings with "goini".

Just go to the Florida show in Tamp in sept. You will see tons of fake floridana/goini by many many florida resident breeders who turn up for that show. They are all locale breeders from florida and after talking with them you will discover the goini has been crossed and released since the 70's.

You sound like you just accept all of this and really don't care what anyone should buy then. Is that what I'm getting from you? Just because all these people have bred FL Kings into "goini" everyone should just not care about wanting pure "goini"? That's what it seems like you are trying to say. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

You sound like you just accept all of this and really don't care what anyone should buy then. Is that what I'm getting from you? Just because all these people have bred FL Kings into "goini" everyone should just not care about wanting pure "goini"? That's what it seems like you are trying to say. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

No, what I am saying it does not amount to a hill of beans. Life is to short to worry about something that you will discover is a farce anyway. If I have pure animals and I want to beleive they are pure and that makes me happy what right does anyone have to deny that? Same goes for someone breeding hybrids or for locality specific F1 animals. I have both. I have been very strict about locality specific animals for over 30 years with the rosys boas. Nobody cared about locality specific rosys when they reached the east coast market. A rosy was a rosy and that is what crashed the prices on the rosy boa market.

You guys are preaching to the choir here.

No, what I am saying it does not amount to a hill of beans. Life is to short to worry about something that you will discover is a farce anyway. If I have pure animals and I want to beleive they are pure and that makes me happy what right does anyone have to deny that?

Maybe to you it does not matter but to some of us it does. Why not respect the fact that others have opinions and they may differ from yours. I want pure animals. If I want to worry about it for the rest of my life then that's my problem and not yours. So why should it bother you?

Your quote:
Maybe to you it does not matter but to some of us it does. Why not respect the fact that others have opinions and they may differ from yours. I want pure animals. If I want to worry about it for the rest of my life then that's my problem and not yours. So why should it bother you?

My quote:
If I have pure animals and I want to beleive they are pure and that makes me happy what right does anyone have to deny that?

Ahhh. It looks like we agree.

These arent the queens jewels here.With the realization that SOME mixing has occured in the past and they are "back"to looking like original animals....as variable as they are....you cant blame anyone for putting a NAME on an animal unless they KNOW its unpure.Locality beyond f1 is basically lost anyway,these are not being released or used for any research.We all wish we were the first to work with these animals but that simply isnt true.Shoot the snakes themseleves dont know they arent pure.We just do our best to tell their story,Jeff

"...you cant blame anyone for putting a NAME on an animal unless they KNOW its unpure."

Personally, I'd like to see the approach that you don't claim it's pure if you don't really know. It's naive to think everyone will do that but I'll certainly try to get bloodlines from those with that approach.

... I guess it comes down to personal integrity and the esteem and respect your peers have have for you.

All you have is your reputation.

My point exactly.

Peter Jolles

Its a matter of degree and though here its admittedly slight, I see nothing in the animal Brandon posted that says cross. My perspective on this however, is not as clear as Sean’s because I’ve only dealt with cb goini from Mark Bell stock. In the 80’s I purchased a trio 1.1 red blotched phase and a yellow phase partial stripe female. Over a couple of generations I was able to selectively breed to the point that I was routinely producing animals even patternless ones as attractive as Brandons which to varying degrees met Mean's discription as well (which by the way is not an original observation). In the end my neonates sold well as well-bred animals will. I personally had no problem with the fact that Mark was known to have crossed to easterns and felt under no obligation to speculate on the purity of the stock I sold or what others had done unless asked. Goini were after all considered integrades and this is how it was done at the time. For as long as I can remember the name of the game was to breed for phenotype and for this reason one should always assume that unless otherwise stipulated stock is generic. The “purity” guys are relative newcomers to this hobby and I think the burden to differentiate their stock is on them. It’s unreasonable to expect the established community play along according to their new rules. The charactor of the breeder in my view only comes into question if they misrepresent after being asked.

I would say that if someone wants a “pure” locality AK king they need to buy it from somebody like Sean to whom it is important to trace lines back to founder stock. If on the other hand, they are simply looking for well-bred attractive goini type kings that have been around in the hobby for years they’d be well served to check out both Brandon and Gulf Coast’s stock too.

n/p