Reptile & Amphibian Forums

well, I basically just don't care for morphes...I don't really think a different color/pattern is any better than a "normal", but I had a couple of things I wanted to ask.

1. Are REAL people (not just other breeders) buying the expensive ball python morphs? It seems like breeders are the only ones buying, simply to breed them and sell them to other breeders who will do the same, and so on.

2. What do you think the future will hold for ball pythons? Do you think the expensive morphs are going to continue to be strong, thriving specimens generations from now with all of the inbreeding/selective breeding going on? Are the morphes even really strong and thriving now, compared to a CB normal?

3. How many breeders of morphs honestly practice inbreeding (and probably without knowing the problems it can cause).

I don't mean to be a jerk by any means. I read a post on the bearded dragon forum from someone that was apparently happy to be out of the bearded dragon business because he thinks with the irresponsible owners out there (and irresponsible breeders), that the bearded dragon industry is eventually going to kill itself. Well, his argument didn't make much sense, except for the fact that there are irresponsible owners and breeders out there (as there are with any pet), and he obviously wasn't accepted on the forum for obvious reasons, but it got me thinking about a couple of things...mostly the future of the ball python. They are awesome snakes, and I hope to have one someday, but it seems like they might be headed towards problems, so I figured I would ask about that.

well as far as inbreeding the effects don't seem to be as devastating as in humans....i am not saying things can't happen but the albino burm has been around for a long time compared to the albino ball & i haven't heard of any serious inbred related issues...the market is probably supported more by wanna be breeders such as myself but you must also remember there are people out there with alot of money...so i don't think everyone buying is a wanna be breeder...if i hit the lotto...regardless of wanting to breed i would have a lucy & a couple other morph just because they are beautiful....i think the ball market will thrive..i dont have a number but say there's 20 proven morphs & 15 unproven....& all of these can be put into sooooo many different designer combintaions it can make your head spin plus it takes years due to small clutchs & picky eaters to accomplish that so that gives this market a steady growth in my opinion....i haven't seen another python with the versitility of royals & lets not forget personality & calm nature for the most part...when i was younger balls were one of my favs & that was a normal one.,...all these morphs are just taking a great snake & giving it more flavor. if all the morphs fell off the planet i believe there would still be an ample amount of balls available because they are just a great python plain & simple

Well I am gonna make this to the point so you learn what the future is gonna bring with this ball python stuff. First off ball pythons are at the top of the favorites list for herps in this country. More people own ball pythons than any other snake. It is a combination of size and temperment that make these little guys super popular. So there will always be a market for ball pythons. They are like green tree pythons they are always available but the price is still high because the demand.
Second is the deal with the crazy prices that high end morphs cost. Only breeders are going to be able to afford these costs so it is the only reason just breeders are buying them. Some of the low end stuff will make its way into the pet trade real soon like the pastels and soon to follow will be the spiders. Co-dominant morphs drop in price super fast because all you need is a year old male to produce a whole bunch of the morph so once people start producing them in a few years they are everywhere. Just look at the pastels. Now recessive morphs are a different story. Albino balls have been around for years and are still too high for pet shops to be buying them, and will be for years. Some people are finding it hard to get rid of albinos because most breeders already have their own they are producing. So the price will start to fall because the demand is less. I see them listed for $2500 but I am sure i could get one for much less.
It will be a long time before some of the high end morphs start coming down in price and years before they are available in pet shops. Just think of a Super Pastel Spider Piebald ball python. It is going to take a while for somebody to produce one of these snakes. And a whole lot longer of out breeding and breeding back to get enough breeding stock to have these snakes available on a regular basis. I am guessing at least six years minimum before I see a carmel albino pied spider more like ten or more years.
As for the inbreeding yeah it happens and alot. The only way to avoid it is to breed unrelated hets and pop out a new "line" not related to the rest. Hard to do when only one of the certain morph has ever been found in the wild. I am just saying ball pythons are one of the best pet snakes in the world as far as needs and caging space. Them coming in a handful of different colors and patterns makes them that much more popular.

“well, I basically just don't care for morphes...I don't really think a different color/pattern is any better than a "normal", but I had a couple of things I wanted to ask."

To each there own. I believe there are lots of people who find say albinos and piebalds more attractive than normals but obviously tastes vary.

"1. Are REAL people (not just other breeders) buying the expensive ball python morphs? It seems like breeders are the only ones buying, simply to breed them and sell them to other breeders who will do the same, and so on."

Real people are buying them to breed. We need lots of people breeding these for years before there will be enough to meet demand and the price can fall to where your average keeper can by one as a pet.

"2. What do you think the future will hold for ball pythons? Do you think the expensive morphs are going to continue to be strong, thriving specimens generations from now with all of the inbreeding/selective breeding going on? Are the morphes even really strong and thriving now, compared to a CB normal?"

I guess we'll have to wait and see. After thousands of years of selective breeding dogs have picked up a few problems. We're only a decade or so into captive ball python breeding on any scale. Hopefully we can do a better job of identifying problems and eliminating them.

"3. How many breeders of morphs honestly practice inbreeding (and probably without knowing the problems it can cause)."

Exactly, we don't know yet if inbreeding will cause problems with ball pythons. Past experience indicates that it might and that we should avoid it but you really don't know.

"I don't mean to be a jerk by any means. I read a post on the bearded dragon forum from someone that was apparently happy to be out of the bearded dragon business because he thinks with the irresponsible owners out there (and irresponsible breeders), that the bearded dragon industry is eventually going to kill itself. Well, his argument didn't make much sense, except for the fact that there are irresponsible owners and breeders out there (as there are with any pet), and he obviously wasn't accepted on the forum for obvious reasons, but it got me thinking about a couple of things...mostly the future of the ball python. They are awesome snakes, and I hope to have one someday, but it seems like they might be headed towards problems, so I figured I would ask about that."

I don't know a lot about bearded dragons but the big difference seems to me that you aren't getting 150,000 new blood bearded dragons exported out of Australia each year. I suspect that bearded dragons have a much smaller base to start with. However, I suspect that enough diversity already exists in the huge captive bred population that with careful breeding they will be able to recover fine. I think all Syrian hamsters in captivity trace back to a single individual in 1930. I don't know but suspect they also had some difficult times early on but where able to overcome them through selective breeding.

well, for one thing, you guys got me to realize one thing. Though I'm not a big fan of morphes, the albinos do look quite beautiful. I still dig the earthy colors more, but I think if albinos were to come down in price (like to the point they're not much more than a CB normal), and I was out of my parents' house by then, I'd probably get one.

So from what everyone here's said, the prices are going to get lower once the breeders have pretty much just bred them so much that there isn't much of a demand from breeders anymore....so then the price will be aimed more at the pet owners?

And as far as inbreeding... as far as morphs go, it's a necessary evil? I guess if it doesn't cause any problems, there isn't anything wrong with minimal amounts of inbreeding, though I do think years from now we'll start seeing problems in certain morphs. I am a little more worried about inbreeding with bearded dragons though now, because it seems like it could happen more readily, especially being that ALL bearded dragons outside of australia are CB. I guess as long as we're able to get past these problems it will be fine.

I was just thinking about something else. There are TONS of species of domesticated dogs.... could that have started as something similar to what the reptile trade is experiencing? Meaning, are some of these species really morphs of others? That would make sense with dogs such as the golden lab that is obviously related to laborador retrievers. Also, golden labs have hip problems or something of that nature due to inbreeding don't they? Well, not exactly the questions to be asking in a reptile forum, but you get the point. My mom has a siamese cat with a kinked tail, and the one we had before that had crossed eyes, and these are two traits that are fairly common to siamese cats....inbreeding again?

Well, it doesn't seem to be causing problems with royals right now....and we'll see if it does in the future. I know it does actually cause problems with bearded dragons (minor problems, but problems that ultimately lead to inferior quality dragons in the future).

I guess there is just a lot to think about regarding morphs, inbreeding, and the reptile trade. I think I'll do some research on it all tonight. That's probably something most people would never expect a 16 year old kid to say on his summer vacation, isn't it?

IMHO there seems to be much more to consider than just inbreeding and morphs when it comes to BPs. I was doing some research myself on their origins and the problems associated with wild caughts (ie feeding and stress)which leads to a high mortality rate in captivity. I found that they are being exported from their natural habitat much more quickly than they can replenish themselves. This translates into a rarity in the wild over the long haul. This being said, those who are breeding are really working as much at business and hobby as preserving a wonderful species. I personally love the pastels and albinos and would love to see them in pet stores. The more attractive the animals are the more likely "average" people will enjoy it. I have read literally tons of info explaining how picky BPs are about feeding in captivity, yet with the current breeders this problem is being worked out of the species. Captive breds feed readily and breed well in captivity thanks to a number of people working very hard at figuring all of their issues out. I think that even given a certain level of inbreeding the species is improving in captivity, as well as becoming more visually appealing to "average" people. A little note to all those who have labored on BP breeding over the years, THANKS!!

Forget where I read it but supposedly for every 1 ball shipped over here 2 have to be released into the wild. The wild is doing just fine as the adults are still being released back to the wild after they lay eggs. They can't get all the females so there are bound to be plenty of babies.

John Light
Pristine Pythons

The wild is doing just fine as the adults are still being released back to the wild after they lay eggs.