Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi i'm looking to get my first hot snake. I understand the risks and am experienced in venomous snake handling, removal, and relocation.

I already own numerous venomous reptiles including gilla monsters, beaded lizards and a boomslang (rear fanged colubrid). So I decided I was ready to enter the world of vipers and elapids.

I would like to start off with a rattlesnake since I have always been facinated with them and have the most experience with them. I would like to get one that has a higher LD50 so I was thinking of a dusky pigmy rattler or a sidewinder. Do these make good starter Venomous snakes, and how hard are they to care for. (also how are eyelash vipers as pets)

I have kept all three that you mention.

Eyelash's require the most care of the three. First they have moisture requirements (daily misting important!). My experience has been that small less frequent meals are a must for good health. For example, the three sub adults I have right now eat once every two weeks and are fed one fuzzy mouse.

Sidewinders are the opposite. Humidity is detrimental to them. In fact (here in Florida) the only Sidewinder I have ever lost was the one I kept a water bowl with. My beautiful 20" Mojove SW has never seen water in the 4 years that I have had him and thrives. He also eats at the same schedule as the eyelash's but gets a hopper mouse.

I have kept dozens of Dusky Pygmy's and the word for them is PIG. They are kept under the same conditions as a cornsnake and have the appetite of a chain king. Of the three this is the easiest to keep.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

You said you are getting your first hot, but own a boomslang. Umm, you do realize that boomslangs are really hot don't you?

I guess boomslangs are hot, but they are still only rear fanged. However this is not to say that you should be careful with them.

sorry I meant to say "this does not mean that you should be any LESS careful with them.

But are rear-fanged? Have you actually seen just how large boomslangs fangs really are? This is the sh!t that is getting hot keeping banned across the US. People that are either ignorant about species or too aloof about them.
Please, if not for your safety's sake, for the sake of hot keepers that still have the luxury of keeping their snakes, and stay away from ANY type of venomous animal. It sounds to me like you are very ignorant about venomous reptiles, regardless if you keep any type of heloderma. Any hot reptile enthusiast, with even a small bit of knowledge could tell you that boomslangs are extremely toxic, have been known to cause fatalities, and have an AV that is difficult to come by.
So to answer you initial question as to whether or not pygmy's or sidewinder's are good starters, in your case, I'm going to have to say ABSOLUTELY NOT.
The venomous reptile hobby doesn't stand a chance.

I sorry If I seemed too aloof about boomslangs. After keeping them for five years and catching vipers for fifteen I find vipers to be much more agressive. This is not to say that both snakes do not command respect.

I think the problem was my interpritation of the word "hot" I assumed it to mean any elapid or viper but not colubrids. The truth is that all venomous reptiles are extreamly dangerous if not handled with respect and the boomslang is no different.

As for your question "Have I ever seen how large a boomslang's fangs are" the answer is yes. However being in the back of the snakes mouth the chance of getting invenomated in a defenceive bite is mimimal. I, by no ways think of the boomslang and it's fangs as "not dangerous". I never handle them more than I need to, and when I do I always use either a hook or tongs. I also have provided 3 hospitols with in 30 miles from my home with up to date AV in the case that I did get bit (this was not exactly cheap either).

As to your attack about me being ignorant about venomous reptiles; If the government employs me to handle, remove and relocate them I think you should trust me with them too. I have undergone 40 hours federal training, in north american venomous reptiles alone, and countless other hours in exotic reptile training. In my profession I also have a creditable say in venomous reptile laws throughout the US and also disagree with the banning of venomous reptiles in sevral states. I would hate to see them go as much as you would.

Therefore, Im sorry if our views about the word "hot" were different, but I'm just as aware of boomslangs being dangerous as you are.

I have to say I'm a bit surprised about what you have just said as compared with your initial post. It seems that a person with your wealth of knowledge, and being on the federal level, would know what a good starter viper would be. Especially since you said you wanted a rattlesnake with a high ld50 and then said your choices were a pygmy or sidewinder, neither have a particularly potent venom. Although, both are still quite capable of producing a dangerous bite. You have to pardon my "attacks", but I can't be the only one thinking the same thing.

The only reason I asked about starter vipers was to get an idea of long-term captive care. I have dealt with all these reptiles, but never for more than a short while. I was just wondering about the long-term captive care of the three mentioned vipers.

As for this: "you said you wanted a rattlesnake with a high ld50 and then said your choices were a pygmy or sidewinder, neither have a particularly potent venom"

The higher a reptile's ld50 is, the LESS potent the venom is.

Dusky Pygmy Rattlesnake [LD50= 2.80]

Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake[LD50= 1.20]

To effectivley work in any field it is essential to learn the jargon.

Frankly, your earlier posts had me shaking my head and asking ......why?

If the government trained you and didn't explain that HOT means venomous. I'd be asking for my money back. Reminds me of the time a "trained Government zookeeper was on TV with a "scarlet king" that was actually a Coral.

One of the rules of survival is NEVER assume you have all the knowledge you need.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I, too, was very miffed when comparing the initial post to the post pertaining to this person's background. My wildlife center, that features many common and exotic venomous species, is under the umbrella of a city government and anyone who has been in the field for any length of time should be able to "talk the talk". Going through a mere 40 hour "training" does not prepare someone for working with venomous snakes; that comes only after many years of experience. Asking beginner questions as an "expert" is kind of embarrassing to me but hey, what do I know...I just work for the government!

PS...as an "aside" comment, boomslangs, despite being rear fanged, possess large fangs and even a defensive bite can easily result in a fatal envenomation (that is how most boomslang fatalities occur!). Hopefully, I just completely misinterpreted your various posts.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
City of Lake Forest, IL

He said he provided 3 hospitals with AV. Which means he would have had to have filled out all of his permits and had a doctor sign off on them. To me, finding a doctor willing to sponsor you for AV, and acquiring the AV, is much more of a chore than choosing between a pygmy or sidewinder.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'll answer his initial question. Pygmy's are very hardy and easy to care for, though some can be hard to get a hook on. I love mine. Sidewinder's need a little bit more of a controlled climate, nothing too major, hot during the day on one side, cooler at night. Eyelashes I don't feel are good for beginner's. They have a much more potent venom than either of the other two snakes, and some can shoot up a hook pretty quick, but since you have booms, they shouldn't compare in speed. The problem is they can hide in some pretty tricky areas pending on what cage you keep them in, visions have lips that can be quite dangerous at times. Also, they have an extremely long strike range, they can be very misleading. I had one of mine shoot almost the full length of it's body at me. It was only holding on to a branch with about an inch of its prehensile tail. So, they can shoot all but a few inches. They can be tricky to get off of hooks at times as well, so two hooks is almost a must. As far as husbandry, I kept mine in the mid 70's ( you may want to keep them in the 80's during the day ) and sprayed daily, once they take pinks, they are also very hardy, and make good captives.
If you do go the viper route, I should say this, save the wild populations, and buy a captive-bred snake.

Thank you for your advice, I have decided to adopt a sidewinder confiscated from an unlicenced minor, that would otherwise have been destroyed. I will keep you all posted on how he is doing.

-Thank You

Bothriechis schlegelii Eyelash viper LD50 = 33.2 I would have figured that would be higher (less potent) than either the dusky or sidewinder.
J

in my opinion. Venom affects people completely different than it would a mouse. Not to mention, I haven't seen two venom charts that were in anyway alike. Just because a snake has a higher ld50, does not mean it doesn't have a more toxic venom. According to a chart I looked at both copperheads and pygmys have a lower ld50 and a higher venom yield than eyelash vipers. That would lead someone to believe that eyelashes vipers have a less dangerous venom, which is in fact the complete opposite.
Another example, bushmasters were at 36.9 SC on the chart. Would you say that a pygmy or copperhead has a more potent venom than a bushmaster? I wouldn't. The effects of bushmaster venom and eyelash venom are much more dangerous than either of the two snakes with a lower ld50. Bottom line, ld50's mean absolutely squat when it comes to snakebites. Especially when a good majority of the fatal bites come from snakes that don't exactly have the lowest ld50's. A ton of things factor in, and every venom acts and reacts differently. Regardless, eyelash vipers have produced fatal bites, more so than the others, if pygmy's have even produced them at all.
We need to start asking question about how venoms of snakes affect humans, rather than asking questions about ld50's, it gives people a false sense of security.
-Tom ( an ld50 skeptic )

Given your post, it sounds really misleading for John Hollister to end his Eyelash article (in the most recent issue of Reptile) with an anecdote about getting bitten by an eylash nenoate, which only resulted in a mosquito-size welt.
Jon

but yes, I'd say very misleading. I've heard the same about some trimeresurus bites, yet the very same snakes have produced fatal bites. Some people have compared them to bee stings. A neonate would definitely be a less serious bite, it's possible it was dry, but I wouldn't go by one persons account of a bite. I'm sure if he was bitten at feeding time, he wouldn't be writing the same thing. I tend to follow the rule that any species of venomous snake has a potentially fatal bite, especially if someone takes it IV. Like I said before, people react differently to venom, and there are a zillion different factors. A good shot from an eyelash viper ( let alone any snake )is definitely not something to take lightly.

Ah, I read you wrong there, I thought you were inquiring for a rattlesnake with a more potent venom.

Lets all be friends here. If someone has a question lets all do our best to answer it. Remember what they used to tell us in school? "There is no such thing as a dumb question." Even if someone types something that provokes an attack. Some of us must learn to differentiate between answering a question and attacking someone only to make "us" appear smarter than what we actually are. Thank you

Hey man, I have 20 years exp. with all reptiles. If required I will take the 40 hour class for employment. I would like to do a job that I can love and have fun at the same time. Being a plumber/master carpenter has its disadvantages. Anyway, now that I am semi retired, I am looking for jobs that will keep me busy and away from my wife. (Just kidding) lol If you have any more questions about reptiles, throw them this way!

What type of job would you be interested in?

Capture/relocation (most action!!!)(usualy done on a local or county level)

Herp taxonomy (feild and genetic)

Inspector (zoos, pet shops, reptile houses)

Feild herpatoligist (mainly survay work)

Wildlife Law Enforcement (requires most training)- This is either on a state level or a federal level (Dept. Of the Interior)

Your best bet for any of these is to check with your state government, They should be able to find the right job for you.

I'm with TJP--the Eyelash, Sidewinder and Pigmy all PALE in comparison to (a) the toxicity, (b) the SPEED and (c) the overall danger associated with keeping the boomslang. Boomslangs are known for being fast-moving snakes, much like many of the elapids, and they have MASSIVE fangs. The fact that the fangs are set further back in the jaw is offset by the fact that this snake is really good at using them, and can open its mouth to a pretty good angle to get them into you.

With my opinion and $.50, you still only get one cup of coffee, but I'm a training biologist and have worked with reptiles for many, many years, yet I don't have any inclinations to keep a boomslang anytime soon. Do you have antivenom available for this species? Have you ever read the accounts of the people who have died from their bites??? I'll just say this--if you're successfully working with the boomslang, have had it for a long time and no accidents, then you're probably safe enough with the pitvipers. Good luck and stay safe!