Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is it hard to get them to eat mice? I've heard that they will only eat toads. Any info would be great.

p.s. any people that sell frozen toads?
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Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

Eastern hognoses only eating toads is a total myth. Some scientific studies have shown that amphibians comprise only 40 percent of their diet. There is no reason why someone with adequate knowledge of snake behavior couldn't switch Eastern to mice. Easterns are also capable of living off of rodents exclusively their entire lives. There is currently no source of captive bred feeder toads, and those that are sold are basically taken from the wild, and certainly not in a sustainable manner. If you do plan on getting an Eastern, insist upon feeding it only mice, there is no reason to remove an animal from the wild that is already struggling to exist.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Thanks, that was very helpful
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Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

np
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0.0.1 Eastern Painted Turtle
0.0.1 Indonesian Blue Tongue Skink
0.2.0 Leopard Geckos

It is all speculation without any basis. I have searched all of the scientific literature, and no one here has ever provided proof of this phenomenon. Easterns do eat rodents in the wild, hair and all!
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

"Easterns do eat rodents in the wild, hair and all." - Have proof of this??? If so, then fine, but I've never come across this in my 9 years of research on Heterodon platyrhinos. H. simus has been known to take mice on their own, but not H. platyrhinos. Perhaps someone caught an eastern, switched it to mice by those stupid trick-feeding techniques, and said, "Hey, I decided to exploit wat this snake recently ate, and a mouse was found!!"

According to people who feed their easterns mice, experts even, will tell you that in the long run, their specimen(s) will suffer from fatty liver disease and their digestive systems not being able to cope with the fur, which is why--if you are going insist on feeding an eastern mice--that you should feed them a bunch o' fuzzies! Rediculous, really...

I say feed an animal what it will naturally take on its own, what it would out in the wild, and if you can't, then don't keep that particular animal. Yes, that is My Rule. Why do you think so many species of snakes, and animals in general, have specialized eating habits? Well, we really don't know why, that's just the way things are, the rules of Mother Nature, of God! Abide by these rules instead of twisting them (e.g., trick-feeding animals into eating something easier for you to obtain) to "appreciate" nature. Perverting isn't appreciating TRUE nature. Do you not want to watch your easter(s) in captivity live as though they would in our ever perfect nature?! They'll live longer and probably more happier.

I had a Western Hooknose Snake once, which as many of us may know, will generally only eat spiders, centipedes, and scorpions, and I was able to supply scorpions (occasionally a spider popped up). I didn't go jamming crickets down his throat to make myself one of the lucky, fortunate ones to have a cricket-eater. I had a Rhombic/Common Egg-eating Snake which I was able to obtain fresh Button Quail eggs for; I didn't use a freakin' feeding tube to jam egg yolk/chicken crap down his throat. I have a few lizard-eating snakes that I am always able to obtain Brown and/or Green Anoles or House Geckos for although two of them naturally took mice on their own form the beginning which is all cool, but I didn't use scent-feeding for the other. And lastly...

Want to know how I supply feeder toads to my (currently one) Eastern Hognose Snake and 1.1 pair of Western Hognose Snakes (although the pair takes UNscented mice just as well)? Every April during breeding season for toads, I go to a local pond or lake of mine (cycle every year) and catch me 100 male specimens, always leaving all but a few females to lay their eggs, and there's still plenty of males as well - have been the same amount left over every year since I started doing this, so don't any of you dare tell me I'm decreasing the local populations of mine! Because quite simply, if my Eastern Hognose Snake were out in the wild (he was captive-born in August '01), he would eat about 75-80 toads from between coming out of brumation and going back in. In combination with the westerns, they'd easily consume 200+ toads in a season, just it would all be spread out as opposed to collecting 100 toads at once, which looks MUCH more devious from the true ways of nature than it really is

My point: if you're too lazy to have some fun in the water or are feminine and thus just don't want to get dirty, then don't keep easterns. HOWEVER, you can buy toads, but they're expensive from most places now (e.g., $2 at Glades Herp). I used to know of a couple feeder-toad suppliers that sold adults under $1/ea., but they don't 'exist' anymore, otherwise, I'd provide them. Or, if your eastern(s) naturally take something more managable to obtain, then you're golden! But whatever...

My Rule is most logical and fitting for keeping and observing nature inside your own home, if you were to all be honest with yourselves. I remember when I used to come on this forum in the late(r)-mid '90s and my lesser, so basic knowledge (then) was helpful and appreciated, and the past few times I've come on--which is about every few months to 6 months--I am shunned away like a novice in his first stage. I remember when Bill Griswold came on this forum, and when I got to talk with him on the phone a few times, it was coincidentally during feeding time for his hogs, his Madagascans one time, which he was thawing native frogs for - a naturalist like me...I hope he still is! Now, this forum is all about pictures, stories, etc., not much needed help/questions asked. Sad, really, but hey, if no one's needing help, then great! I see people are doing their research!

Sincerely,

Sir Timothy (a.k.a. T.J. Gould)

on this site or another board just this year in which a herper stumbled upon an eastern which regurgitated a FULLY FURRED RODENT. And I know I have read of other instances. I still have yet to see someone offer up concrete evidence of fatty liver disease. Most people just end up blaming fatty liver after feeding mice without even a necropsy. They feed some mice, and when the snake dies for WHATEVER reason, all of a sudden it is fatty liver disease.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

First of all, there is hardly need to take live amphibians to feed Heterodon. If there are amphibians around, simply drive the roads on wet nights and you are sure to find twice the amount of live frogs you would find DOR. These DOR's are usually in fair condition, can be chopped up to feed small easterns, and can be used for scenting.

Secondly, if platyrhinos does not take mice in the wild, why do a fairly large percentage of ch (not even CBB) hogs take mice off the bat. Puzzling to me. No one has to shove anything down their throat.

And lastly, you comparison of animals in captivity to animals in the wild is totally bogus. Let's see here. By that token, I should be feeding my horned and african bullfrogs only other frogs as that is what their wild diet consists of. Seems strange that they do fine anyway. I suppose my friends anaconda should be eating capybara and caimans. The fact is, these animals aren't in the wild. They don't have to eat what is in the wild. Plenty of healthy eastern hogs exist that have been on a rodent diet their whole life. I

f you choose to feed amphibians, that is your choice. But don't make it seem like people that feed rodents are just shoving mice down the hoggies' throats. Many take mice with little or no scenting. They are still poor captives for the beginner enthusiast, but many of the ones I have kept took mice with a minimal amount of work.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine