Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off I want to point out Paul and I have prven the hypo dumerils to be recessive unlike common or colombian boas. Colombian boas this is a codom trait if anyone ever offers a het hypo colombain they are simply trying to rip you off there no such thing in colombians.

the Arancio phase and hypo dumerils are two totally differant lines. Ill start with the Arancio phase Dumeril's since I produced them.
In 1999 I bred two of my normal Dumeril's These animals were first Gen from some imported animals back in the 80's from what I was told by the person I bought them from. I have no reason to doubt him as he knew what he was doing and had a rather large collection of dumerils that were sold off only because of a divorce. Anyway heres the mom who was produced in 87

She was the monsterous female I had. She was over 9ft and weighed in around 35 pounds I lost her in the move from PA to IL. If there ever was a anery dumerils she was it, the pic makes her look darker then she was but she was only, black, grey and white, no browns, reds etc. Arancio was born in a litter of 17 babies.
Below is dad he was born in 88 from unrelated animals from a first gen breeding as well.

Hes produced many time in the years I have had him. At 16yrs old he fathered one of the two litters I have this year.
Anyway in 1999 I bred those two animals from what I was told the parents were imports from Madagascar which would make them first generation US captive borns. From that breding I got 17 babies one of which being my Arancio phase pictured below with a sibling female the pics were taken this spring.
Last year I bred him to an unrelated female and got a litter of 4 offspring two of which were normal and two were indentical to dad. However all 4 were still born. Comparing their size weights and the coloration of the normal babies in the litter to other babies its my opinion they were full term, everything checked out. Which would make this a codom trait.

Also he has a pure white belly no marking what so ever on it and his tongue is pure orange aside from what you see in the pics. The above pic is orange coloring was washed out a bit by the sun however you can see his orange in the pic below. Heres a pic of him at a couple months old

The animal that snakeman97 has resembles my Arancio phase, to my understanding it has not been bred yet. Once it is I would love the oppurtunity to cross bred and see if these are the same genetics.

Now on to the hypos, Im not sure when the parents to the hypo were brought in to the US from sweeden. These animals were imported from a captive colony in sweeden and once here Kevin Hanley aquired them. He produced the hypo in 98 and after wards decided to sell his Dumerils collecton. Paul(PBM) received the mother and sibling to the hypo. I recieved the Hypo and father.
Last year(o2/03 season) Paul bred two of the siblings togther and in that litter produced one hypo just like the hypo I have. Since these were normal looking animals(siblings to the hypo) that were bred and produced a hypo that would make them hets and this trait recessive.

Now in the 03/04 season, I bred dad to the hypo(her first breeding were she took) and got two babies and a couple slugs. One of the babies was totally normal and the other was hypo. Since Paul produced a hypo from his normal looking siblings and I produced one from the hypo bred to her father that would make this recissive and the father a 100% het same as Pauls siblings.
Heres a pics of dad
That pic is extremly acuarate. I wish all dumerils were as easy to photograph as him. Anyway this past year I bred him to the hypo

Heres a pic of the hypo

The above pic was taken by Kevin prior to her being sent my way. She is a little lighter then what she apears in the pic She has no blacks, no greys, her belly is totally white.

So I hope this clears up the confusion. These are two totally differant lines that came from two totaly differant ends of the world. They are not related in anyway shape or form. This year I plan on sending my het male up to Paul to be bred to the mother of the hypo and whatever else he wants to bred it to. I plan to bred my Arancio to the sibling pictured above, my dwarf female(she never misses lol) and the hypo dumerils in an effort to procude Arancio het hypos. Anyway if any of this comes off brash I apoligize I am tryng to type as fast I can because I have to get to work thanks Jason
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

Without commenting on the validity of your claims, I want to raise the question of where the burden of proof is for the genetics for some of the many supposedly genetic traits that are popping up in captive breedings. I typically find that most breeders think simplistically when it comes to genetics as would be expected based on the more popular color traits (amelanism and hypomelanism) that follow simple Mendelian genetics (dominant and recessive genetics). My concern is that many breeders immediately state they have proven out the genetics for whatever trait they beleive they have after only one or two breedings. This is not very scientific especially when that trait is difficult to distinguish from what may well be the extremes of natural variation. Again I am not making any accusations here with regards to the hypo Dumerils. My point is simply that genetics is something that is proven through many breedings and especially through outcrosses to unrelated individuals. A het to het breeding should produce one fourth homozygous offspring, yet that percentage is not statistically relevant from only one or two breedings. Suggestive maybe, but not proven. We need to be careful when labeling possible genetic variants. Certainly the orignal label of codominance to hypomelanistic boas is a perfect example where the genetics was labeled before it was completely understood. And I would say that it is still not fully understood since the pattern and other variations involved seemed to be linked.

BTW nice Dumerils. Makes me yearn for the ones I used to have.
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Rick Staub
R&R Reptiles

Agreed. I would be much more likely to believe in these...
hypo type animals if you guys had more to go on. What I meant to say about Arancio is that he is what I think a hypo would look like. Right now, I think you guys have only proven the "hypo" trait to be be genetic. Further breeding will probably prove them out to be a co-dom. I know this is pretty speculitive, but I'm basing my OPINION on unbiased science, not wishfull thinking. If Arancio proves out, I'll be throwing down some serious cash for that trait... HE IS AWESOME. The question on the belly is what solidified my opinion of him. He is across the board lighter in color. He is without "pick and choose" areas of black coverage, like co-dom rtb's have- a result of selective breeding. And by having a white belly instead of a gray one is a very positive direction for a hypo, that is carrying an "all or nothing" trait. All that said, I think you're making a huge mistake breeding Arancio to these hypos. It will only futher confuse things in the long run. These lines should be kept seperate, like cornsnake hypos were done. Cornsnakes first had a simple recessive hypo trait, then through selective breeding super hypos were created. By making the same mistake that was done with BCI hypos, by calling a co-dom to com-dom a "super" or a dominant- It'll make a mess of a possible simple recessive hypo like Arancio. Again speculation until he's proven. I did look through my pictures on the old computer and I couldn't find the picture I promised, I'll have to eat that one. But I did find the photos that Bill Varner sent me last year. In my opinion, that's a possible simple recessive hypo. If he proves that out, I'll be throwing cash down on that line too.
Thanks for your understanding Jason, my only intent is to debate this issue-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula
2100 Stephens #116
Missoula, Montana 59801
406 541 9929

Just a picture of an half of the 02' litter from Sandy

Put a drool gaurd on your key board...

Hey Bill, are you in the market for any "left nuts"?

Those snakes are just spectacular, I think the other one should be pastel dumerils compared to those guys.

Your telling Jason his animals which so far with my breeding and his imply the trait to be simple recessive is probably really a co-dom. And then your stating you feel with nothing other than opinion to back it up that the arancio is probably simple recessive? And Bills animal is also probably simple recessive, BUT again you feel Jasons "hypo" is probably NOT simple recessive. SO....what makes you think without ANY indication whatsoever the arancio and Bills are recessive, but the hypo is co-dom??? It really makes it seem that your simply out to argue. If Jason had said the hypo was co-dom would you say your opinion was that it was recessive? As far as MULTIPLE generations needed to prove a trait....When Pete produced albinos with hets did he say they were recessive or did he breed them 3 more years in a row before making his mind up? Now since were on it, I'd like your scientific proof backing up your opinion of my dumerils below being a cross.

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Really, it's like this.....Jason says he bred Arancio to a normal female and got half just like arancio and half normal. So, he assumes co-dom. I breed two siblings to hypo get hypo..Jason breeds father x hypo and gets a hypo-assumption made recessive. YET, in your opinion arancio is recessive and the hypo is co-dom. COMPLETELY opposite of any proof made thus far with breeding trials. Could you be right? Maybe, anything can happen with genetics. But, I think if you come out and give such an opinion with NOTHING to back it up with(have you even seen any of these animals in person?) you should atleast give an explanation. And you showed Bills animal-very nice! But, didn't you and someone else tell him in one of the original post that his pic proved nothing, basically downing him as well? Back when you were certain the animals were not recessive, co-dom, or anything else other than PREMATURE? Now, you have gone from premature to genetic, just inheritable in the way opposite of what Jason claims in both cases. Gotsta go-see ya!

when all that's been produced are slugs, born dead babies and another deformed pig-faced, kinked-back, inbred POS.
Now You Take Care-
Matt "The Boa Natzi" Schubarth

Get mad, that's fine. I'm just going to sit here and keep waiting on your opinion which you state is based on unbiased scientific opinion rather than wishful thinking to be backed up with an ounce of factual information. And when you do grace us with some input to back up your opinion, please remind us all of the various degrees you hold, and in which fields of science so we'll have a better understanding of how superior your opinion truly is. I did back up some of my own opinions by having scientific research actually done..in regards to crosses which you previously claimed one of my animals to be. I've also loaned out some of my animals for behavioral research. So, if we really need to start comparing notes, let me know, and I'll come prepared. Basically here is what your telling me. I'm assuming you've had several dozen litters of dumerils yourself, correct? Now, in all this time have you produced a stillborn, premature, kinked pig-nosed POS, or any other dumerils that truly express the same look as our dumerils? You say you have had lots of premature babies that look identical, yet when asked for proof-POOF! NONE! So, let's assume this phenotype is not really all that common. So, these normal dumerils produce a hypo(pastel, hypo, reduced black-yet not hypo) dumerils(whatever you wanna call it, after all this is your project right?) It is simply a spontaneous mutation. Now, the siblings to this animal produce an identical looking baby(a pig nosed POS as you refer to it as). One would have to assume with your opinion as the rule that it was yet again another spontaneous mutation that although not seen in the thousands of other litters produced every year, just HAPPENED to be produced by siblings to the other "hypo" dumerils. Yeah, that is probably more accurate than it possibly being recessive. At the end of the day, all I can say I care to see is that you never own one. If I never produce another one, I could care less! You sure seem to be pretty self involved though. Nice of you to show off other peoples animals as well. Oh by the way, the one dumerils you keep showing pics of looks like a ground boa x dumerils to me....can I back that opinion up...NOT AT ALL, but if you can claim my animals to be something they are not, then I can do the same. Nice looking cross! And I was glad to see you gave me your verbal approval that my animal was abberant. But, how bout his white belly....is that the marker for a cross? Any opinions on this? Take care...."boa nazi"what the heck is that supposed to be??????)

Now lets see if this gets posted on the top of the forum or in the correct place

First off Matt I would like to see your proof as to how Pauls animal is a cross???????? I have produced many just like his pattern less from various breedings from unrelated DUMERIL'S.

"Right now, I think you guys have only proven the "hypo" trait to be be genetic. Further breeding will probably prove them out to be a co-dom."
Then please explain why Paul produced a hypo from two NORMAL siblings?? I am all ears as to why two NORMAL siblings of a codom trait as you put it produced a hypo. Last time I checked a codom trait is a codom trait and normal animal cannot produce a codom trait. Maybe like Paul said out of the thousands of breedings of Dumerils last year I guess he just somehow got lucky and produced a hypo. Of course the fact that the animals that produced that hypo were siblings to a hypo have absolutely nothing to do with it. Ok sure......
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"I know this is pretty speculitive, but I'm basing my OPINION on unbiased science...The question on the belly is what solidified my opinion of him...And by having a white belly instead of a gray one is a very positive direction for a hypo, that is carrying an "all or nothing" trait"

Humm so his white belly made the case its an all or nothing trait because of that. I would love to read those scientific journals where they state animals with white bellies are genetic mutations. I would also love to see how they would define him with black saddles as a hypo yet an animal that properly fits the definition of hypo isnt; or is that all just your scientific opnion?
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"I think you're making a huge mistake breeding Arancio to these hypos."
Good, who cares! Ill bred them to whomever I want, for whatever reason I so choose, however since you think Arancio and the Hypos offspring are just some "inbred POS" why should you care?
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"These lines should be kept seperate"
Well thats your opinion however since your scientific knowledge is based on some science that states white belly = genetic trait instead of the work Paul and I have already done. I think Ill pass thank you
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"It'll make a mess of a possible simple recessive hypo like Arancio"
Ok so hes simple recessive, so I guess the unrelated female I bred him to last year was a het??? Im following you now. Oh that right she was pig faced, I guess since she was pig faced she can throw any color morph she wants huh?
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"You really don't have much of a proven trait with either line...."
"I think you guys have only proven the "hypo" trait to be be genetic."
Well which one is it? Neither are proven or the "inbred POS" hypos have been proven. Your jumping from ship to ship, just pic one and sail in it will ya!
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"If Arancio proves out, I'll be throwing down some serious cash for that trait..."
No you wont, my "born dead babies...deformed pig-faced, kinked-back, inbred POS" Arancio or hypo offspring wont be for sale.......TO YOU!
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"my only intent is to debate this issue-"
" I'm willing to drop it for now, let time be the judge."
What someone punches a couple holes in your story and you cop out with that crap??? Come on lets here about this "unbiased science" that proves arancio to be a trait because he has a white belly. Also I would love to hear more about how normal animals throw codom babies and of course I want to hear you god like opinion on why Pauls animal is a cross. You say your intent was to debate this is that so? Or do you have some personal agenda? Because the fact you attack the way you do then try to run when you cant back your garbage up leads me to believe you have a personal agenda.
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

"What I meant to say about Arancio is that he is what I think a hypo would look like." So Arancio is a hypo??? Well considering what you had to say below
"By a "complete expression" in a homozygous recessive trait, I mean that they should have an across the board reduction in black pigment. Not just on the back or the face." I would tend to think his non-lack of black pigment would mean he is not a hypo, would you agree? All he lacks is browns and greys and has way more orange then any dumerils I have ever seen in person. But please explain to me where my animal that you have never seen before lacks black pigment. This time try not to jump ship again.
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

Thanks for the detailed 411....As always Jason, those are some nice looking Dums....no matter what there genetics are...It makes me wonder why I don't have any!?

Chris O
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www.chrisolsonreptiles.com

Is it possable that they are co-dom but not the 50-50 but rather than a varried amount due to the strength in the breeders.
For example...
I have had a tiger boa bred to a normal boa produced only a third tiger babies but the entire litter was weird and not normal at all but not quite tigers either, now this mother was an average tiger a few missing saddles and a few small stripes on her sides. Now another Tiger female with a lot of tiger look was bred to a normal male and produced more than half the litter of tigers, the sibs were also weird looking.
Thus this gives me the impression that the strength of the gene may be varried by the visual traits of the gene. the more tiger looking female had 70% tigers when the less tiger looking female had less than 30% tigers.

BUT I have several outcrossings and a few unrelated different locals that I am studying to prove this out, this season will show "hopefully" what a super tiger does with another tiger and a normal as well. But at this time I believe the trait to be codominant,
Could this be the same case with the Dumerils, not being hets but rather codom by visuals strength?

Who knows but further breedings will be the telling answer.

Don't stress out over it guys, if what you do makes you happy, well then BE HAPPY, DON'T WORRY.

Later,
Nick

nm

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