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You never answered a question I asked you several times below concerning misrepresentation. I'm curious as to what your definition is. So I ask again, just because a seller lists an animal as such, whether it be labeled correctly or not, is it misrepresentation if the buyer doesn't ask more questions. You seemed to believe that even if a snake wasn't labeled correctly but the seller gave correct info when asked that it was NOT misrepresented. What happens if the buyer does not inquire? A snake is labeled as such and the buyer thinks they're getting one thing when in fact it's something different. Does that mean I can sell anything and label it whatever I want and I'm not misrepresenting it as long as the buyer asks for more info? Sounds like what you're saying to me. Please explain.

I think that is the real heart of the issue before and is important to us all. Knowing the true identity of an animal, whatever that may be! This way any potential buyer can make their own decision on what they are buying instead of falling into "camps" pro-this and pro-that.
If you can't buy something with confidence in knowing what your buying, no matter what that is, markets are affected. All breeders and all buyers get burned when buying confidence is ruined.
Its like "we sold you this Rolex at our Rolex store for $50 off because this rolex is really made by someone Casio, but they look alike. No one could tell the difference though so don't worry"
or
"So what its cubic zirconium! you didn't ask us!"
or
"Sorry, my supplier told me they were real Rolexes!"
Now I don't mind cubic zirconium, but I know what it costs a lot less and I do not need to go to a diamond shop to get it!
My post is on the issue, not directed towards you Bluerosie, your response is your business, but I do think the issue of identity and control of it is what pisses people off, not "locality versus generics vs crosses."
Matt

Again, you are preaching to the choir. Why are you guys even asking me this question? Can't we discuss how to identify differnt types of asians or something?

Here I will start:

Rule A) Japanese people have slanted eyes and are lighter than Chinese people who also have slanted eyes, some Japanese people have a short layer of body hair covering them...those Japs are known as Okinawans.

Rule B) Chinese people have eyes that are not as slanted as Japs and are usually slighty darker (as noted above)...they also often have strong, rugged facial features (from years of outdoor work) and stern demeanors......they are the Mexicans of asia.

Rule C) Korean people usually have round faces and round eyes (compared to Japs and Chinese), they often have the last name 'Kim'.

Rule D) A very dark asian is quite possibly a Filipino, however they could be a Micronesian also.Filipinos can be identified by being the dark asian with the Spanish sounding last name.

Rule E) If the person has a last name that includes a N followed by a G, they are probably Vietnamese

Please dicuss and feel free to post pics of asians. Preferably female asians!

At the bottom of my post I am telling you my post was referring to the issue in general and not you in particular!
But I should have placed my post as a separate topic in hindsight! It should not have been placed under a post where someone was asking you a direct question about your ethics and for that I apologize if it seemed you were being ganged up upon, not at all the intention.
Matt

Sean,

Hey don't get mad at me. I don't have anything to do with Gulf Coast Reptiles (GCR).

Of course I don't endorse misrepresenting anything. What you are talking about is a particular incident between you and GCR and you may have misunderstood my post as much as you did the GCR advertisment. When I responded to you last I tried explaining to you what MAY have happened. I do not endorse misrepresntation...I think where you misunderstood my post the most was my example I used. Some people are unfamiliar with labels on deli cups like RGST-MCB or PGRABS-PGRAHA . People who are interested in hybrids know what this means. Other who do not walk in the hybrid circles do not whaht it means so a name is assigned.

If a guy walks into reptile show and wants to but his first or second snake do you think he should ask questions as to what "het " means or is that misrepresnting? AFter he does not know but is he expected to know? After all I have had people come up to me at shows and ask if I have any snakes eat lettuce.

In my ads for hybrids I assign names to each individual animal to make identification easier. Names like tequila sunset or Pine/Bull. Does that mean the snake is a tequila sunset or is the hybrid a pine bull cross. No thats not what it means. It simply means that is what they look like the most. But "to you" it may mean something else.

example Pine /Bull

Sean, it all depends on what group or circle of herpectoculturist you are exposed to. If you are into Rosys or hondurans you are expected to know certain things before you making a higher dollar purchase.

Personally I don't know much about salamanders or turtles. I would not walk into a show and purchase one for $200 and then complain the seller did not label it right when in fact everyone that knows turtles knows that it was.

I hope that explains it. I don't know what happened between you and GCR but I am sure you do and by spreading your experiences makes one think its a simple case of "the lady doth protesteth to much".If they labled it for simplicity and THEN explained it I don't see that being a problem. Its called advertising. If they labled it as a goini and tried to sell it to you as such that is mirepresentation or WORSE. I call it stealing. But we know that did not happen because you never bought the snake and you found out it was a cross. How you found out may have been a little late for your tastes.

So why don't you tell us the story again with full details and then maybe we can make a fair judgement and then GCR can come on here and give their side as well. Would that be fair? I think it would before you continue lets get all the parties involved and let the jury selection begin.

Tell me if I am way off base here because I don't think its right to continually bring up Gulf Coast Reptiles name without anyone going to them and asking them what their side is.

Remeber I am not siding with them or you. I just remember they were honest with me and thats the extent of my involvment.

Rainer, I started this post without any reference to GCR. I was simply asking YOU about YOUR definition of misrepresentation. I understand where you are coming from. Sellers expect buyers to know what het means or what piebald means. If buyers don't know what certain terms mean and buy an animal without asking with the animal labeled as such, then the buyer is at fault for not knowing what they have just bought. I'm referring to an animal not labeled correctly to begin with. If a buyer seeks a "goini" and buys one because it is only labeled as "goini", I don't think the buyer is at fault. It's the sellers job to label that snake correctly to begin with without the buyer having to ask for more info. If I go buy a Corn snake, I expect to get a Corn snake. I don't expect to buy a Corn and later find out that it was bred with a Cal King and is actually a hybrid. Should I the buyer be at fault for not asking first if it was produced from a Corn bred with anything else? And knowing it was listed as only a Corn snake? If I were new to the hobby and didn't know much about snakes I would expect to be sold a Corn. Sounds like you expect the buyer to not only know about ALL snakes to begin with but also to question everything they buy so that the snakes are not misrepresented. When in fact, it really is the job of sellers to represent their snakes correctly to begin with.

You deal with hybrids and label your snakes whatever way you want. Call them whatever you want to because I don't deal with hybrids. But I believe that anyone going to buy a Cal King or a Corn should know up front if it's a true Cal King or Corn without being bred with anything else.

Sean,

Why are you asking me this over and over? Why don't you ask someone else how they label their snakes?

I don't have the faintest why you are asking ME this question and how I label MY snakes. I assumed you asked because it was the thread on GCR.

As I stated 3 times now I label my snakes for what they are. I used an example on how OTHER hybrid breders label their snakes.
I don't have many hybrids. I don't sell or breed hybrids with a lot of different species in them. AND for the last time I don't have a clue as to why you are asking me this. I think you read into things or assume things to much.

Maybe because you replied with something like this:

The largest snake breeder in the world (Mark Bell) has plenty of hybrids but they do not list them as such except for abbreviations like:

Now how about a het Peibald Ball python? Should the seller expect the buyer does not know what a het or Piebald is? No, of course not. Because if someone is shelling out that kind of money the assumption is the buyer is well versed enough to what he/she is buying.

I was simply replying to a response by you. If you can't answer, just say so.

I zink I anzered you in ze pozts.

Lat me put it to you dis vay. Do you tink all dat will vit on a deli cup label?

pyro/greeri/ruth/alterna/blairs/sinloanXPyro/greeri/ruth/alterna/holbrooki/alter

Vay don't you go botter somevone vita cremzicle corn. Zey don't haff emoryi x guttata on zee label.

Lat me put it to you dis vay. Do you tink all dat will vit on a deli cup label?

pyro/greeri/ruth/alterna/blairs/sinloanXPyro/greeri/ruth/alterna/holbrooki/alter

Yes I do. I would simply put "mutt"

Seems like I understand you Rainer but you don't understand me. I guess I'll just let it go.