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I'm looking into purchasing and future breeding Northern Pine snakes(Pituophis melanoleucus melanoleucus). However, I've seen many pictures with many different color phases - some with black/brown, black/brownish-red, or black/white (and I'm sure there are more).

My question: What coloration makes for a pure, beautiful, and profitable northen pine snake? Or is the coloration just a matter of preference? Because presonally, I think the black/white phase is the prettiest.

Thanks for the response!

please provide some pics too!

Well,
that's an interesting question to a guy who just sold 18, and was amazed at how long they lasted! It seems knowlege has a lot to do with how stuff sells. See, people see the gorgeous pictures of adults, and presume babies start out that way. Well, in some cases they do! The babies can be high white, but talking to another breeder, he's had stuff start out not the greatest that surpass the ones that started out white. Yes, it seems the highest white is the favorite of most people. And I'm guilty of that! But the fact is, if you were to go to the Pine Barrens, you'd find them being basically a black and white pine, something I've been told by people who've been out there. But they can indeed have varying amounts of red. That red is in between scales, and in areas of the tail in spots, or blotches even between the black tail blotches. And You've got some animals that have a lot of black in their pattern. I have a friend who sent me a pic of a Pine Barrens animal that was very black in the fore end, just like a black pine! Pure Northern? YEP! but like so many snakes, they have variation! Look at corn snakes! Same way! You can have a whole litter that runs the gamut of shades of color, or pattern variation. But to answer your question, it seems the high white, with dark black blotches are the favorites. Those babies sold for me right away. Yet I made sure the red baby was labeled as such, cause she'll have plenty of red showing in her later. Some people are big on that. I have a breeder friend who bought such a baby last year, looking for a certain shade of red at that. Everyone's taste is different, yet yes, people want a Northern Pine, that has NO red in them, anywhere! Yet, such Pines are not the norm, and even my high white male has a couple red spots. Otherwise, yes, he screams the white background. Yet my big female, screams black and white too, AND has some of that red in her, that makes her more beautiful in my eyes than the young black and white male. Just my opinion! What's interesting, is when that young male was first shown to me, I didn't think much of him! He was a dull white and black baby. He didn't scream at me with a white background, and now look at him! I sure am glad John Meltzer, his breeder talked me into taking him, cause as a breeder with years and years of experience, he knew what that baby would develop into. Same thing happened this year. I had two babies picked out, but they ended up both being males. And I wasn't going to keep any. But as we finished up sexing the babies, the last one, a female, was the one John praised the most, and told me, THIS girl, is going to be a screamer! Again, dull looking, light gray background, but nothing as light as some of the others, but if you put them side by side, she doesn't have any other tint of color, and her head is gray, not a tinted yellow or brown... Anyhow, enough, here's my young male's picture, it's what people tend to be after, but I haven't heard any complaints from anyone with snakes that are less white, with more red! Northern Pines are indeed a wonderful, wonderful animal! Good luck to you in search of what you want...and that lies the key, why just get stuff cause it sells well? Why not keep what YOU like! Cause eventually prices fall, and that's yet another point, not too long ago John could hardly give his high contrast baby pines away! That demand goes up and down just like everything else. A cycle, and a cycle that isn't regular by any means!

Well.....your question probably really has not definite answer, as people's tastes can vary with what they think is the prettiest or what makes certain colors of northerns their favorites.

Northerns can vary quite well, as you have described. My two black and white northerns are in contrast " black and white" but they both differ a lot as well. One has a lot of red and one has no red whatsover. My hypo northern looks nothing like them as he is pastel pinkish and dark lavendar, while my albino northern is orange-yellow and red.

I love them all and they all jazz me like hardly any other snake. So.....to me they are all nice! LOL!

Northerns, have for me, been about the best pet snakes I have ever owned as well. That...along with all their different color qualities makes for nice northerns in my opinion.

Take care!
Billy

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Genesis 1:1

Well! As a son of da South, ah have toah put in tha word fo our Southin Pines! (lol)

Though personally when it comes to them "Yankee Snakes" I like the sharp black and whites.

In the end though if it's healthy and it looks good to you...then it's the right choice.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thanks for the reply.

So what you are saying is that even native Northern Pine snakes vary with shades of blacks, browns, and reds. Is that correct? And I would love to see some pictures of the others you mentioned. Also, which phases are the least common and most prized? Or is it again at matter of preference? Thanks!

Well first off each snake is beautiful in its own right. But profitable? I think if its profit you want look into another type of snake. Pits eat alot and poop alot, between buying food and cleaning time you will be in the red, lol. But in the case of Pits being in the red is OK by me.
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The Crawl Space

Thats an interesting looking Northern. Is that a 2004 model?

Rich Hebron

Hey Rich!

This male is a 2003 model.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I haven't really seen a bad looking Northern Pine, except maybe the one Billy picked up in San Diego last October. LOL. John Ginter told Billy it showed some integration and he still bought it and loves it. I wish I could have been in the car ride back to Tucson to listen and see those 2 making their views and points known. LOL.

I personally like the Burlington County locale descendents. The reddish overtones in the gound color really sets off an already impressive looking snake. Nothing like a big Northern Pine female. You can hear the "Oohs and Aahs" when you bring her out to show people. The black/white Northerns are real popular from what people post on this forum and other places.

I suggest you pick the Northern Pine that has the color and pattern that you like. If you pick the snakes you like and work with them, your snakes and their offspring will show it. You'll enjoy this hobby a lot more and the snakes will benefit. If you are going to breed your snakes, then you will be spending a considerable amount of time with your snakes and the things necessary for breeding. Pick the pair of Northern Pines that you will enjoy caring for and looking at almost every day.

Here's a pic of one of the black/white breeders Del and I used to work with since you favor those.

Terry Parks

Hey Terry!!!!!

Great post there my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah.......Burlingtons are very nice! I love your snake shown!!!!

I may be picking up some Ocean County northerns this year in Daytona. You still going???????

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

We are there from Firday about noon through Monday. Should start a new thread to see who will be attending this season. We have only missed two Expos to date but have attended the past 5. We do not hit many shows annually but always plan on making this one.

Rich Hebron
904-233-1973

I had to throw in the Northern Pine you picked up in San Diego and the story that went with it. I know the Northern you picked up is every bit as nice as any Northern. The Ocean County Northerns seem to have the higher number of black/white pattern and ground color. The Burlington County Northerns tend to have a light creme and/or offwhite ground color. Del and I had two pairs of breeders. The Burlington County pair from Ginter and an Ocean County pair that came from a bloodline our local veterinarian had. The veterinarian left to go to school to be a reptile surgeon. The pic I posted was one of the Ocean County breeders. All this Northern Pine posting has me missing them again. Here's last year's Burlington County offspring.

Terry Parks

Terry....

Here is a better pic of the previously posted one. He has grown a lot since the other pic.

This one has not one speck of red on him, unlike my Burlington county, and he is non locale.

I am really excited to get some Oceans. I had a chance last year in Daytona but stupid me passed and regretted it ever since.

I love that pic of those babies! Oh how beautiful!!! Yes.....the Burlingtons seem to have more red. Mine has a ton of it, but it is hard to capture on camera.

Dude......you like northerns......you don't have any, so PICK SOME UP IN DAYTONA!!!!!!! LOL!!

You are going, right????? Give me an email bro!!!!!

Billy

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Genesis 1:1

Thanks for all of the informative responses.

I have another question: When purchasing baby pines for future breeding, is it best to buy males and females from separate bloodlines (parents) to avoid interbreeding? Or does that not matter so much with snakes?

Thanks!