Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all,
I know a little about a lot of snakes, not realy an expert on any. But I've been keeping them for about fourty years.

A couple months ago, I caught a pretty little female black rat, who ate like a champ from the getgo. She has everything she could possibly need, including a basking branch with hot spot of about 85, which she loves, two hide boxes with spagnum moss inside, good size water bowl, and a nice big cage in a quiet location.

All of a sudden she has taken to rubbing her nose till it bleeds, and is refuseing to eat. What is up? The only thing that I can think of as not being optimal, is the thermal gradient. She has a hot spot for about six hours a day, light, and back ground temp., is whatever nature provides in that room this time of year. It's not air conditioned, so it get's up to low 80s in that room. Is that it? Does she just need a cooler background temp.? Or what? How long should I leave her in quarentine? She appears otherwise healthy. Thanks,
Tony.

Are you positive you have a female? Sounds like a male on the prowl for a girlfriend.
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PHWyvern

Hmmm,...could be, I haven't probed yet, just did a visual guestimation. Could be a male, but this animal is only about a year old, maybe two. A little young for that, right? And it's kinda late in the season for them to be breeding isn't it? But this little guy or gal is destroying the cage daily, and does not want to eat. So that would be otherwise consistant with your theory. Any other ideas? Anyone? Please? Can't stand to see it's little nose like that. I may end up puting this one back where I found it. Thanks,
T.

>>Hmmm,...could be, I haven't probed yet, just did a visual guestimation. Could be a male, but this animal is only about a year old, maybe two. A little young for that, right? And it's kinda late in the season for them to be breeding isn't it? But this little guy or gal is destroying the cage daily, and does not want to eat. So that would be otherwise consistant with your theory. Any other ideas? Anyone? Please? Can't stand to see it's little nose like that. I may end up puting this one back where I found it. Thanks,
>>T.

It is not uncommon for male snakes to become sexually active as young as 18 months. Snakes can have more than one breeding season during the year so technically it's not really too late though it would be pushing it quite a bit for wild females who have to produce the eggs... if the climate is warm enough eggs laid in the wild could hatch in October or early November without a problem.

As for the nose problem, I would suggest if you wish to keep the animal, you will need to remove any objects which have a rough surface that the snake is likely rubbing the rostrum on. I'm not sure what kind of cage you have, but if the lid of the cage is metal, cover the part that the snake has access to with soft fiberglass window screen. If it's a wooden cage, you may have to line the walls and corners with soft screen too.

We have a wild caught adult male black rat that we got last fall who drove us nuts during the early spring breeding season and rubbed his nose a bit raw as well. The activity level only lasts a couple weeks then things should be back to normal. The second less-defined breeding season for him though I must say was a bit different. He must have learned his lesson from the previous one as he didn't go nuts trying to break out of the cage, but rather was just a big ole grumpy-tempered thing... lots of posturing and hissing and twitching when trying to go into his cage. Again, doesn't last long before things are back to normal.
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PHWyvern

>>Hmmm,...could be, I haven't probed yet, just did a visual guestimation. Could be a male, but this animal is only about a year old, maybe two. A little young for that, right? And it's kinda late in the season for them to be breeding isn't it? But this little guy or gal is destroying the cage daily, and does not want to eat. So that would be otherwise consistant with your theory. Any other ideas? Anyone? Please? Can't stand to see it's little nose like that. I may end up puting this one back where I found it. Thanks,
>>T.

It does sound like it may be looking for a mate but it also sounds like something might have changed to stress it.
Have you changed anything in its habitat?
Maybe the substrate? or something else?
Or maybe the substrate needs to be cleaned or changed.
Is there something different in the room?
Maybe another snake in view?
just kind of thinking out loud.
I had a female start ovulating in the middle of January so it isn't always when YOU think it should be.
I have also had males and females get restless like that for a couple of weeks and then settle back down and start eating again.
One other thing. Leave the light off for a few days.
It is also possible with the room staying in the 80's and the light on, the tank could be getting a lot hotter then you may think.
In this vein you may also want to make sure it has a water dish large enough to submerge in, if it doesn't already.
once again just kind of thinking out loud here.
good luck
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Remember, My posts are MY opinion only!
Jimmy (draybar)

Hi Tony –

I guessed from your subject line what the problem was going to be before I opened your post! Some ratsnakes just rub their noses in captivity, especially during the breeding season, while others do not. Black rats seem to be particularly prone to this. I grew up three wild-caught black rat hatchlings for over a decade. One male and female did not rub their snouts. The other female bumped the top of her snout against the cage sufficient to leave a permanent deformity, and that has led to a chronic respiratory problem. I have a female corn snake which has done the same thing.

In my experience, male ratsnakes are most active during the time they would normally be breeding. Females often become suddenly restless during the time prior to egg deposition. Even if your snake is a female which has not bred, it may have a load of infertile eggs. Whenever I see one of my female ratsnakes (corn snake, black rat, whatever) out of the blue start to frantically push against the cage door and keep up that behavior for days, I make sure I provide a nest box.

My non-gravid black ratsnakes choose temperatures in the mid 70’s to low 80’s.

-Joan

Hmmm,...again. A lot of good info., but nobody connected yet.

He rubs his nose on the cage floor, and newspaper. He basicly destroys it, wrinkleing it, and smashing it until he bleeds. The evidence left behind on the newspaper. I haven't found any blood anwhere else.

Nothing has changed.

His set up is a clear plastic tub, a realy big one, about 100 qts. The biggest one they had at Wal-you know. With a heat pannel under the lid, on a timer set to run 6 hrs. a day, a basking branch under that, two hide boxes, {a big one outside, but connected to the box}, and a smaller hide inside the cage, and a large water bowl sufficceint for him to imerse. The hides are each filled with damp sphagnum moss.

Now he has gone into a shed. Perhaps because of the injury to the nose. That may be why he went off feed.

Ive been watching the temps also. They haven't gone above 88. Wait a bloody minute,... Something has changed... it's gotten hotter! I guess if he were loose, he would be back up in a limestone bluff, in a nice deep dark, cool crevas right now. That may be a bit warm for him, so he may be instinctively trying to burrow under ground, to escape the heat. I think I just answered my own darn question. Howbowthemapples! I think it's time to move the cage! Thanks all, sometimes I am a little slow!LOL! You guys helped me think it through. Thanks a bunch! Later,
T.

>>Hmmm,...again. A lot of good info., but nobody connected yet.
>>
>>He rubs his nose on the cage floor, and newspaper. He basicly destroys it, wrinkleing it, and smashing it until he bleeds. The evidence left behind on the newspaper. I haven't found any blood anwhere else.
>>
>>Nothing has changed.
>>
>>His set up is a clear plastic tub, a realy big one, about 100 qts. The biggest one they had at Wal-you know. With a heat pannel under the lid, on a timer set to run 6 hrs. a day, a basking branch under that, two hide boxes, {a big one outside, but connected to the box}, and a smaller hide inside the cage, and a large water bowl sufficceint for him to imerse. The hides are each filled with damp sphagnum moss.
>>
>>Now he has gone into a shed. Perhaps because of the injury to the nose. That may be why he went off feed.
>>
>>Ive been watching the temps also. They haven't gone above 88. Wait a bloody minute,... Something has changed... it's gotten hotter! I guess if he were loose, he would be back up in a limestone bluff, in a nice deep dark, cool crevas right now. That may be a bit warm for him, so he may be instinctively trying to burrow under ground, to escape the heat. I think I just answered my own darn question. Howbowthemapples! I think it's time to move the cage! Thanks all, sometimes I am a little slow!LOL! You guys helped me think it through. Thanks a bunch! Later,
>>T.

I moved the cage into an a.c. room. He's gone into shed, and into hide for now, but I suspect will be fine after. Now that he has a proper thermal gradient. Thanks, I'll be back.
T.

>>Hi Tony –
>>
>>I guessed from your subject line what the problem was going to be before I opened your post! Some ratsnakes just rub their noses in captivity, especially during the breeding season, while others do not. Black rats seem to be particularly prone to this. I grew up three wild-caught black rat hatchlings for over a decade. One male and female did not rub their snouts. The other female bumped the top of her snout against the cage sufficient to leave a permanent deformity, and that has led to a chronic respiratory problem. I have a female corn snake which has done the same thing.
>>
>>In my experience, male ratsnakes are most active during the time they would normally be breeding. Females often become suddenly restless during the time prior to egg deposition. Even if your snake is a female which has not bred, it may have a load of infertile eggs. Whenever I see one of my female ratsnakes (corn snake, black rat, whatever) out of the blue start to frantically push against the cage door and keep up that behavior for days, I make sure I provide a nest box.
>>
>>My non-gravid black ratsnakes choose temperatures in the mid 70’s to low 80’s.
>>
>>-Joan
>>

Oooooh! I have a LTC (got as a tiny baby in KS and given to a friend etc, til she got to me, she is now going on 4yo. NEVER been a nice snake. Last winter I brumated and she escaped during, hide in the cellar for 2 months, found with minor injuries, URI, everything ended up with her going suddenly septic and a month of injections etc. She is healthy now.... Wolfing down small rats and striking at me all the time. She has also worn her nose horridly. It is a constant battle to heal it up. Right now she isn't rubbing. I have her in a 90qt tub with melted holes (no rough edges) and she still manages to hurt herself! I call her my psycho girl. Sometimes she is calm and handleable, doesn't rub her nose and sometimes she is nuts. I haven't noticed a seasonality to it but am thinking I should put a nest box with her now that you mention all that. Learn something new all the time.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

If any snake gets to hot it will do what your desribing.If the room temp is 80 you dont need any other type of heat period.When I had my ac off to paint all my snakes went crazy from the 90 plus it got in my room...Paul.