Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone !

It's Michael, AGAIN, in my effortless attempt to try and figure out what one of my Garter Snakes is. Here are the possibilites...

Red-Sided Garter Snake
California Red-Spotted/Sided w/e it s/ Garter Snake
Valley Garter Snake
Red-Barred Garter Snake

I live in a town called Ukiah in the mid norther part of California. About 2 hours north of San Fransisco. I have been told in our county we have Thamnophis Infernalis, Thamnophis Perietalis, and have recordigns of few Tetreania. I am almost positive this is a California Red-Spotted Garter. But I am not 100% sure. Please tell me any information oyu can !! I have included a few pics which show his body color, and his head color. He just ate some guppies when I took these! He's a little fella!

Image

>>Hello everyone !
>>
>>It's Michael, AGAIN, in my effortless attempt to try and figure out what one of my Garter Snakes is. Here are the possibilites...
>>
>>Red-Sided Garter Snake
>>California Red-Spotted/Sided w/e it s/ Garter Snake
>>Valley Garter Snake
>>Red-Barred Garter Snake
>>
>>I live in a town called Ukiah in the mid norther part of California. About 2 hours north of San Fransisco. I have been told in our county we have Thamnophis Infernalis, Thamnophis Perietalis, and have recordigns of few Tetreania. I am almost positive this is a California Red-Spotted Garter. But I am not 100% sure. Please tell me any information oyu can !! I have included a few pics which show his body color, and his head color. He just ate some guppies when I took these! He's a little fella!
>>
>>Image

Def. Not a California Red Sided, not sure about the others.

-cat
-----
My collection and herp photography

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

Okay, not exactly the best pic. but, it looks like a T.infernalis which is the California Red Sided Garter. Here is a web site that shows the different color variations that a infernalis can have http://www.wildherps.com/species/T.sirtalis.html.
But, so you know California only lets you posses 2 specimens. And you can't sell any of them or their babies. You can't even buy C/B ones in another state and have them sjpped here. If anyone disputes this then go to http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1502.pdf and look at sec.43c.
Hope this helps

Thank you sooooo much !!! I now know it is t. infernalis. YOu do not know how much this meant to me lol! I also read over the code and I understand the rules and stuff. Thank you so much for your information I am very happy. I'm out to look for a female tomorrow for him, and hopefully they'll have babies soon. Of course, i'll let them all go though

In many states it is illegal to release into the wild any long term captives as well as any captive bred offspring. Check California laws before you breed your snake and release any babies.

Oh I know. I have, and read all the way through, the State of Claifornia Resource Agency - Department of Fish and Game's: Native Reptile and Amphibian Captive Propogation Laws and Regulations.

For the COmmon Garter Snake, SPecies Thamnophis Sirtalis, and all sub-species, if you have a fishing liscence, you are allowed to collect two, and no more than two, and oyu cannot export them, or any babies, you cannot sell any babies or keep any babies they must be released where the parents were caught.

The law actually says that you can only collect 2 and posses 2. That is it. A propagation permit will allow you to keep up tp 30 at one time. It also states that you must write DFG for there ok to release any captive reptile. Lastly, you are allowed to give the babies away to those possesing fishing liscense. And it can be only 2 animals per liscense, unless they have a propagation permit. I also live near the Bay and would love to breed infernalis, but that is way to much drama for me. So I work with the next best thing Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus - Oregon red-spotted garter snakes. Here is a pic. of my Coastal that I caught in Marin county.

Here are one of my baby T.concinnus. She was just about to shed. Also, a few of my adults have blue bellies and chins.

Thats a beautiful snake. Do you live in California? IF theres anyway, I would love to buy one off of you!

>>Okay, not exactly the best pic. but, it looks like a T.infernalis which is the California Red Sided Garter. Here is a web site that shows the different color variations that a infernalis can have http://www.wildherps.com/species/T.sirtalis.html.
>>But, so you know California only lets you posses 2 specimens. And you can't sell any of them or their babies. You can't even buy C/B ones in another state and have them sjpped here. If anyone disputes this then go to http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1502.pdf and look at sec.43c.
>>Hope this helps

Now how could that be? I've seen photos of some of Casey Lazik's and a few other breeder's stock, and they are much more bright red than that. Or has that been breed into the species over time?

-cat
-----
My collection and herp photography

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

well, becaus eit looks jsu tlike one, and i called fish/game today and it is a ca red-sided garter snake too. Hes only a baby only look s a couple of months old, so he doesnt have th ebest colors yet. And there are different looking Red-Sides I.E. yellow or white dorsal stripe etc...

>>well, becaus eit looks jsu tlike one, and i called fish/game today and it is a ca red-sided garter snake too. Hes only a baby only look s a couple of months old, so he doesnt have th ebest colors yet. And there are different looking Red-Sides I.E. yellow or white dorsal stripe etc...

Well, here's what the California Red Sided Garters I usually see (including babies) look like:

(photo from Scott Fezer's page at http://www.gartersnakemorphs.com)

So that is why I was unsure.

-cat
-----
My collection and herp photography

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

I understand what you are saying and had the same opinion. After looking at many pictures of T. s. infernalis in texts and on the internet I found them to range in coloration from “bland” to spectacular. That is why I felt this particular specimen looked a bit like the common Red-Sided T. s. parietalis which is typically a bit blander than the infernalis or concinnus subspecies (my opinion.) Keep in mind that breeders will usually breed for unusual morphs or else to emphasize the epitome of natural colors. A breeder’s web site is often not the best place to see a "typical" example of any particular species or subspecies. Some people like to post pictures and locality/field data of animals they have seen while hiking or field herping. These sites can sometimes be more representative of the norm. I encourage these types of posts along with appropriate notes. That is why I posted my pics of La Sal Wandering Garters a couple of weeks ago. There is a whole fascinating world of herpetology outside the breeders rack.

Randy

I would say it is the California Red-Sided Garter Thamnophis sirtalis infernalis. Not as much red/black separation as some specimens and it looks like it might be approaching shed. Your individual does mimic the Red-Sided T. s. parietalis a little but those are not found anywhere near California (unless it is an escaped captive) and they would have a dark colored head. The top of the head of T. s. infernalis should be red or redish brown so a head shot would definitely clear up any confusion. The Valley Garter T. s. fitchi is also found near your area but more inland from the coast and Ukiah (I believe.) The top of the head of this subspecies will also be black however (as is T. s. parietalis.) It is definitely not T. s tetrataenia. If you research this animal be careful. For awhile recently the subspecies was no longer recognized and it was lumped in with T. s. concinnus, the Oregon Red-Spotted Garter. To make it more confusing during this period the name T. s. infernalis was applied to the San Francisco Garter which was formerly known as T. s. tetrataenia. The excellent text The Garter Snakes, Evolution and Ecology by Rossman, Ford and Seigal reflected this. Recently this was all "officially" switched back but you will find texts and web sites using either of the sub specific groupings. It is always important to have locality data when sub specific designations are poorly defined or the differences subtle. Plus not all herpetologists will agree with any particular list and changes can occur at any time as folks conduct and publish research. Scientific and common names both evolve with time and research. So depending on which list you use your snake is either a T. s. infernalis or a Calif. locale T. s. concinnus. I would go with T. s. infernalis.

I love this hobby,

Randy