Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Chris-
Apparently you're the go-to guy on all of this building cages stuff...so if you could help me out...or anyone else for that matter...I would appreciate it.

I'm building a rather large cage for my Chinese/Aussie water dragons (4X5X3) and was wanting to know some things. I know that pine and cedar are toxic to herps...I was wondering what types of plywood could be used? The only ones I found had pine in them, unless it was birchwood (which was kinda pricey). What about MDF (or is it MBF...I can't remember)? I plan on using Red Gard to seal my plywood since part of the bottom will basically be a shower floor type deal. Is Red Gard ok to use? There will be pvc liner on the bottom. What kind of sealer can I use? I'm not going for the fancy type look...just something that will a.) seal the wood and b.) keep the wood from decaying due to high humidity.

If anyone could shed light on my questions...I'd appreciate it.

Ok im not the goto guy ... lol but ill work in a pinch lol

MDF ( medium density fiberboard) that says enough there and the fact "water dragons" are going in it say even more

MDF and water mix like vinegar & oil i would look into using either birch , "whitewood" ( found at lowes i think over home depot) the birch average cost is $41-48 depending on area and stores white wood i think runs about $35 or so . the mdf will swell superfast when water gets into it unless it has a totally sealed coat of durable paint on it or sealer. also the MDF if basically a "fiber " of paper that is glued under high pressure thus with screws in it it makes it easy to strip out and pull out of the holes nails hold even worse in it cause when a nail goes in it seprates the layers of the fiber . with a water dragon in it im sure there is going to be water ? so that chances of a spild and it leaking into a crevice or crack that maybe not totally sealed . once water gets into the MDF it swells like a sponge and ite pretty much irreversable to cure the swelling . i know u said ur not looking for looks buit think of longterm use a little $ up front can cure having to change it or rebuild it in a yr or so if water gets into the MDF. hope this helps

"I'm building a rather large cage for my Chinese/Aussie water dragons (4X5X3) and was wanting to know some things. I know that pine and cedar are toxic to herps...I was wondering what types of plywood could be used? The only ones I found had pine in them, unless it was birchwood (which was kinda pricey). What about MDF (or is it MBF...I can't remember)? I plan on using Red Gard to seal my plywood since part of the bottom will basically be a shower floor type deal. Is Red Gard ok to use? There will be pvc liner on the bottom. What kind of sealer can I use? I'm not going for the fancy type look...just something that will a.) seal the wood and b.) keep the wood from decaying due to high humidity. "
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....Creating better ideas today then the day before while i dont claim to have invented the wheel... im just making that wheel roll a little better ... Edit this !www.junglehabitats.com and www.junglehabitats.com/forums/portal.php

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edited signature file to remove advertising slogan. Please update accordingly. [phw 3/25/04]

::Apparently you're the go-to guy on all of this building cages stuff...

Well only because I'm unemployed and bored... there are plenty of more experienced cage builders than I. But I'm still glad to help

::I know that pine and cedar are toxic to herps...

Most of the colurbrids raised for the pet trade are raised on pine shavings. Near 0 of the mice raised for snake food are raised on pine shavings. If pine has an significant toxicity problems it should be most apparent with pine shavings with their high surface area.

::I was wondering what types of plywood could be used?

I believe pine plywood can be used, especially since it would have to be sealed. But it is very hard to find in an AA quality (A grade on each side) and tends to not be as straight as birch plywood. I'm a huge fan of birch plywood and think it is well worth the upcharge over BC pine plywood.

But pine plywood can still be used. See TTreptile posts on his Olive Python cages to see what he's done with it.

::What about MDF (or is it MBF...I can't remember)?

MDF could be used but you would need to seal the cage with something stronger than polyurethane. A two part epoxy resin or perhaps even pieces of Fiberglass Reinforced Panel, making sure to do a very good job of siliconing the corners.

::I plan on using Red Gard to seal my plywood since part of the bottom will basically be a shower floor type deal. Is Red Gard ok to use?

I don't know exactly what Red Guard is? Is it a polyurethane designed for decks, etc.? Is it oil-based?

Even if you used a plywood over MDF I still think you'd want something very durable and scratch resistant for Water Dragons. In that regard, since either product would require a heavy degree of water proofing, it might be okay to go ahead and use the cheaper MDF.

But it will be noticably heavier than a plywood cage.

Red Guard is a sealant that is used to completely water-seal any type of wood. Apparently it's the sh*t...so who knows

Ok...but what type of sealant should I use...and how many coats?

I did a quick google search on Red Guard and did not find much.

For a water dragon I would want something extremely durable. Probably a two part epoxy of some sort. With that big of a cage you don't want to use an oil-based product that will need to be touched up every year or so. Better to use something you can apply once and forget about.

That is unless you have a way to get a 4'x5'x3' cage in and out of your house?

Fiberglass resin or pool epoxy can be used to make aquaria out of plywood. Hard to work with but very durable. Over on the Monitor forum West Systems marine epoxy is popular.

But glueing on FRP board or some sort of thin plastic to your cage might be the easiest method.

Another comment on MDF. I agree with Jungle Habitat's comments about it not accepting nails or screws well. If I were to build a large cage from MDF - which I don't think I would - I would use a bisquit joiner. But that requires the joiner and plenty of long clamps. Probably not worth investing in if you don't already have them.

i will try to see if i can find a old invoice for it as its been about 2 yrs since i closed my cabinet shop .

There is a vinyl PVA based sealer that can be used its extremly durable and will seal ANYTHING . it is unpenatrable from water once applied. I still say if it were me i would steer clear of MDF the cost is cheap but so is the final product in the long run.As chris said biscuit joining can be done but even then you have a weak point (the MDF) as the wood biscuits are harder then the MDF so there fore withthe cage if it is moved you have a stress point in the biscuits that will be harder then the actual material of the MDF.

As to using a FRP or vinyl over it as a sealant that would work semi well but then you have a joint and with even 100% silicone on a slick surface you will get shrinkage and drawing of the sealant and it will have the potential to "peel" during cleanings. i would if iwere you use a pine and frp or here is one thought if you do choose to use the MDF get a several cans of a auto undercoating ( rubber spray) coat the entire surface with this then assemble the cage the rubber will totally protect the MDF provide a 100% waterproof surface then coat it with a quaility marine paint or epoxy floor paint like used to seal garage floors or warehouse floors its extremely durable and will last a long time under the claws of a lizard .
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....Creating better ideas today then the day before while i dont claim to have invented the wheel... im just making that wheel roll a little better ... Edit this !www.junglehabitats.com and www.junglehabitats.com/forums/portal.php

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edited signature file to remove advertising slogan. Please update accordingly. [phw 3/25/04]

If you do find the invoice post the actually product number here. That's something I've wanted to experiment with since you posted that picture.

Agree with you overall about the MDF. It is cheap and has a fairly smooth surface on both sides but I just don't think it's worth the downfalls (weight and jointery issues). I do think it has some merits for smaller applications, however.

here ya go heres the PDF file on it
http://www.woodkote.com/products/Sealers/KatLaq680VinylSealer.pdf

for a gallon it runs abot $25..00

heres a list of dealers for it on this main page and it can be ordered online if you dont have one near you . the stuff is rather AWSOME lol .
but when working with stains you have to be careful of the stain and its base cause the stuff seals so well it can create a problem if you arent using a 2stage stain and it depends on the wood you use also when staing . when i first used it i was doing a black laquer finish on some cabinets , and was the first time using the sealer after being reccomended by a fellow cabinet maker. well for the first time it cost me ALOT of labor as i applied it same as other i hade used and when i applied the stain to it it barey took on the wood due to it sealed the wood so well i ended up spending 4-5 days of sanding to get the color to take right lol
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Buisnesses come and go everyday, what keeps you here is how you treated the customer the day before....Creating better ideas today then the day before while i dont claim to have invented the wheel... im just making that wheel roll a little better ... Edit this !www.junglehabitats.com and www.junglehabitats.com/forums/portal.php

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edited signature file to remove advertising slogan. Please update accordingly. [phw 3/25/04]

As some other posters have pointed out, MDF will swell if not sealed properly. Of course you could go with A-side plywood which can be quite expensive. Also, I'd be surprised - going by the dimensions you gave - if you'd be able to get your whole cage built out of one sheet. You're then looking at more than $80 in wood alone, not to mention you glass, window tracks, etc. I've been building cages for years from many different materials and I still don't believe there's any *perfect* material. All that being said, I built a cage out of 1/2" thickness MDF using GTP breeder Greg Maxwell's plans with some slight modifications. Maxwell (www.finegtps.com), has built all his cages for adult GTPs using MDF which is sealed with hunter green-colored contact paper and then has all corners sealed with GE brand 100% silicone. At the nature center I work at part time we had some cages made using Maxwell's method although the wood was cherry plywood instead of MDF. We've found the contact paper has held up well except in cages holding active monitors, which tend to rip the paper off the walls. So, not the best for active, large lizards. I think you might be able to try this method for Water Dragons. If you look at Maxwell's page you'll note that he's built cages from just about every material, just like me. He's settled on MDF for his purposes, although I wouldn't commit and say it's best for mine. I like the cage I built and so far with a misting system hooked up to spray on it twice daily I've had no leakage problems in months. I think it's a very workable design but has some limitations, just as you'll find with virtually any material. As far as fastening MDF goes though, I simply used SPAX brand screws (8 x 1 1/2", with pre-drilled holes, and I glued all edges with Liquid Nails for Projects. Where Maxwell uses biscuits to join his wood face frames I used a wood doweling kit, however if I build another cage again I'd use 4" long screws to simply screw the face frame together. Overall, for a cage that measures roughly 4'x2'x2' I spent about $100 in materials and it took me about 3 days to build it. I hope this gives you some alternative ideas.

Matt Campbell
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois