Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello again. My "problem", if you will, is that my four-week-old blacktail indigo will not eat... I have had him now for one week and three days. I have tried to feed him 4 times, three times w/ live pinkies and once w/ f/t pinkie. All to no avail. I called the breeder and asked what he had fed him and his response was both live & frozen. I explained the dilemma I was having and he asked if I had been holding him before feeding, my reply was yes. He recommended that I not hold him for about 2 days before feeding. I gave this a try - but still nothing. I have however noticed in the last couple of days his eyes have started to cloud, so he will be shedding soon. Could this be the reason for him to not have an appetite? I am just worried about him being so young and not eating. The breeder instructed me that he would be fine and the reason for him not eating was most likely due to him beginning to shed. Just want to know if this is true and if he should be ok.

Thanks again in advance for all your help,

Eric

>>Hello again. My "problem", if you will, is that my four-week-old blacktail indigo will not eat... I have had him now for one week and three days. I have tried to feed him 4 times, three times w/ live pinkies and once w/ f/t pinkie. All to no avail. I called the breeder and asked what he had fed him and his response was both live & frozen. I explained the dilemma I was having and he asked if I had been holding him before feeding, my reply was yes. He recommended that I not hold him for about 2 days before feeding. I gave this a try - but still nothing. I have however noticed in the last couple of days his eyes have started to cloud, so he will be shedding soon. Could this be the reason for him to not have an appetite? I am just worried about him being so young and not eating. The breeder instructed me that he would be fine and the reason for him not eating was most likely due to him beginning to shed. Just want to know if this is true and if he should be ok.
>>
>>Thanks again in advance for all your help,
>>
>>Eric

Baby Drys can be stubborn. He's probably OK, and the fact that he is going into a shed cycle could certainly have something to do with his refusal to feed for you. Wait until he sheds, then try splitting a F/T pinkies head open to expose the brain.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Two years ago I had four baby easterns that were being difficult. Baby indigos are born with an internal yolk sac and many or most babies will not feed until that yolk is completely used up and the baby becomes, essentially, starved. This may be a month after birth with some babies.

I tried pinkie rats and mice, live, f/t, and brained, with no success. Someone suggested goldfish, but that didn't work. I had been feeding older indigos day old chicks from time to time. One feeding day, on a whim, I cut off the legs from a f/t chick and squeezed out the blood onto the nose of a live pinkie rat. The results startled me. All four baby indigos pounced on the pinkies so fast that they didn't even seem to look at them, and they certainly didn't wait for me to close the cage either.

My experience is that indigos prefer the smell and taste of chicken over all other foods. Babies will refuse meals until they smell the smell that tells their brains to eat. Once they are started, it is easy from then on.

If it has gone too long (like past a month) you had better force feed the snake. It is pretty easy. Pry the mouth of the snake open with the nose of a pinkie mouse and then just stuff the head into their throat with a finger. Hold the jaws of the snake closed to prevent it from spitting the meal out. Gently and patiently push the remainder of the pinkie in with the eraser end of a pencil. Then use your fingers to move the meal down to about mid body.

Good luck, Robert.

Hi Robert,

It's not my intention to insult your knowledge but, I have to disagree with you here.
If I were to force feed an animal, I would wait well past a month unless the animal is loosing weight.

My 1st eastern didn't eat for 3 months. I was very frustrated to say the least but, she maintained good body weight through out.

I'm just not a big fan of force feeding. I once ruptured the esophagus of one of my young rosy boas while force feeding. Luckily, my vet was able to surgically repair the damage & the snake survived.

Eric

Dear Eric,

No insult taken. There is probably a great difference of opinion on this issue. I don't consider myself a fan of force feeding either, and I may try waiting it out on my normal size healthy hatchlings (I've done this in the past). I like your suggestion of basing the need for force feeding on maintenance or lack of maintenance of body weight. It must have been hard for you to wait three months with a hatchling, particularly something with the value of an eastern.

Chuck Elliott used to offer pinkies to two week old hatchlings. The next day, if the pinky was still there, he would push it down. He never hurt a snake to my knowledge, and his hatchlings would always begin feeding on their own within a month. I believe he did this more out of convenience. He would routinely have thirty babies or more each year and I think he got tired of the wait and the worry.

I have known people who have lost hatchlings well before three months while enduring this "wait it out" process. From what you say, it would seem likely that these babies were experiencing a decline in weight. They may have been underweight at birth. This can happen when the egg is small or has been water stressed (dimpled due to insufficient moisture). The problem is, if you have many hatchlings, keeping track of who is losing weight and who is not seems to be incredibly tedious. Chuck was confident that he would not hurt a snake and he avoided this whole problem.

Chuck, if you are there, I am sorry to be speaking for you. Chuck Elliott has tremendously more experience than I do.

I omitted one thing in my directions for force feeding. It works fine with live pinkies and fuzzies. Frozen thawed mice or rats don't work well. The tissue is too macerated and is likely to break up. If you choose to do it, use live (I know, they squeak and pee while you are stuffing them down).

Also, Eric, a couple questions. What were you force feeding your Rosy Boa with when it got hurt (was it hopper-size or larger). Hoppers or larger have sharp teeth which protrude more. I wouldn't use anything larger than a fuzzy. How did you know that the esophagus was ruptured?

Nice topic and conversation, Robert.

Ok, my memory was slightly fuzzy. I went back and checked the feeding cards on that indigo & found the following:
She hatched on 6/14/02, refused to eat until she took a f/t fuzzie mouse on 7/27. But, then she refused to feed again until 9/22, when she ate 4 gold fish. So, she had 1 meal in the first 3 months.

The circumstances surrounding the rosy boa are kind of embarrassing but, if someone can learn from my mistake I guess it's worth a little embarrassment.

I was using a pinky pump to force feed her a pinky rat & the force required to push a pink rat through that thing was sufficient enough to blow a hole in her esophagus & embedded the sluch into the body cavity causing a lump in her side. When I called the vet, he said it was unlikely that the food was actually in the body cavity & said that it was most likely caught in the throat & told me to try massaging it down.

I finally took her in & he took one look at her and immediately took her into the OR. He even let me come in and watch, it was really interesting. The small incision was made along the edge of one of her stripes & was almost impossible to see when it healed.

When using this method of force feeding, NEVER pump anything other than pinky mice!!!

Eric

Like O.H. said, dry's going into a shed tend to not be hungry. Wait for it to shed before you try again.

If the snake is still in the big cage, it might be refusing to eat because he's feeling insecure.

Doug T

>>Hello again. My "problem", if you will, is that my four-week-old blacktail indigo will not eat... I have had him now for one week and three days. I have tried to feed him 4 times, three times w/ live pinkies and once w/ f/t pinkie. All to no avail. I called the breeder and asked what he had fed him and his response was both live & frozen. I explained the dilemma I was having and he asked if I had been holding him before feeding, my reply was yes. He recommended that I not hold him for about 2 days before feeding. I gave this a try - but still nothing. I have however noticed in the last couple of days his eyes have started to cloud, so he will be shedding soon. Could this be the reason for him to not have an appetite? I am just worried about him being so young and not eating. The breeder instructed me that he would be fine and the reason for him not eating was most likely due to him beginning to shed. Just want to know if this is true and if he should be ok.
>>
>>Thanks again in advance for all your help,
>>
>>Eric

That's another thing I asked the breeder - about removing him from the 65 gal. tank and putting him in a shoebox sized container to feed. He told me "no" that I would not need to remove him and that he would do fine where he is at.... Should I reconsider moving him during feeding until he gets a bit bigger and more comfortable with the large tank - or just leave him in the large tank and just look at it as "he will eat when he is hungry"?

Thanks again

I would absolutely recommend putting him in a shoebox to feed him!

Wait until it sheds, but it in a small plastic shoebox with nothing else but him and a split nose pinky and leave him alone overnight in the dark.

If this doesn’t work, you are going to want to start trying other foods. Fish, frogs, lizards, baby snakes or
scenting pinks with these things. Baby Drys will often refuse pinks for their first meal in favor of cold-blooded prey items such as these. They seem to LOVE young toads, snakes…and often go for fish.

Always best to start by trying f/t items, or f/t items smeared on a f/t pink.

Think safe and secure (thus the small container) and preferred food item. Sometimes you need to find out what that is. It’s NOT necessarily true “if it’s hungry it will eat” some young snakes will die of hunger before they will voluntarily eat anything other than their preferred food item.

Force-feeding is a last result…but do if it comes down to it, it is not too difficult with Dry’s.
Good Luck

When I purchased him at 3 weeks of age, the breeder told me that he had eaten 2-3 times (live pinkies). The breeder would not sell him until he was sure that he would and was eating. He actually told me that I could feed him upon getting him home - that same day. Well as I stated before, that did not work. I was also told by a few NOT to leave the pinkie in with him for longer that 15-30 minutes. That if he hasn't eaten it by then - most likely he won't. Any input?

Thanks

Leaving food overnight in the darkness is the way to go. To expect a hatchling to eat within 15 minutes is wrong. It's been my experience that hatchling Drymarchon often prefer f/t pinks to live. Or you may have to resort to other food items already mentioned. Place food in his hidebox and keep him in small cage, something with floor space close to that of a 10 gallon aquarium. If he's getting ready to shed prime feeding time is a couple of days after shedding. Check carefully to see that eye caps come off.

GREAT - I'll try that. So let me get this straight -
1. Wait until after the shedding is over
2. Place him in the smaller container
3. take a f/t pinkie w/ head split open
4. leave him with it overnight

I'll try it and see how it goes. If anyone else has some input - please let me know.

Thanks

I have to really question the breeder, and dare I say I question whether the snake has ever even eaten in the first place.

Someone who would tell you that if it didn't eat right away, it wasn't going to eat...I would say has very little experience with juvenile drymarchon.

I have worked with hundreds over the years and they almost NEVER take them right away. Adults are a different matter, but the youngsters are very very secretive feeders.

Well - I thought the same thing - but the guy is quite experienced - he owns Captive Born Reptiles in Columbus, Ohio. http://www.captivebornreptiles.com/ He has been breeding them along with green anacondas, reticulated pythons, ball pythons, corn snakes, rat snakes, bearded dragons, american alligators... All from babies. I don't know what to think here - I'll just wait until after the shedding is aver and see how he eats

You've gotten some rather conflicting advice it seems.

Juvenile and adult dry's have different feeding patterns. Once they reach adulthood, you wont have to leave a meal in for more than 15 minutes. As hatchlings, they are problematic and may need to be left with food as a few folks suggested.

Don't watch your snake when you're feeding it. It probably wont feed if you're nearby.

As for the cage... you need to compromise with what you want. Get yourself a shoebox/sweaterbox, put in the substrate, water dish and hides. Put this inside that big cage.

I keep my baby dry's in cages that are 6" x 8". This DOES help with feeding.

>>Well - I thought the same thing - but the guy is quite experienced - he owns Captive Born Reptiles in Columbus, Ohio. http://www.captivebornreptiles.com/ He has been breeding them along with green anacondas, reticulated pythons, ball pythons, corn snakes, rat snakes, bearded dragons, american alligators... All from babies. I don't know what to think here - I'll just wait until after the shedding is aver and see how he eats

[any] baby snakes are terrified of being 'picked off. this is hard wired into them at birth. as cb's, some species are more difficult than others......baby dry's are right up there w/ some of the most difficult.....i would put him in a small box now and don't try to feed him for a couple days after he sheds. if he doesn't eat then, he probably has never eaten.......if you can, then throw in a newly hatched corn or some similarily sized snake and then he'll feed no problem. thats a start and it's important to get them eating something, anything in the beginning......sounds like you got your work cut out for you. good luck............

Hmm, he doesn't seem to know the proper sub species names.
This is take from his website...

Eastern Indigo (Drymarchon corais melanurus). White chin ............ Inquire.
Eastern Indigo (Drymarchon corais melanurus). Red chin ............ Inquire.

Eric

Hi,
I will share some advice I was given a couple of years ago.

Collectively you have been given good advice by the people on this form who live and breathe Drymarchon.

I have raised two neonate Black Tails with the experience and advice given here from these form members.

1.Neonate BT cribos do not like to be handled. Most are very afraid of being eaten. It upsets them. Very secretive animals at this stage of life.
2.10 gallon enclosure with small water bowel, shoe box with a hole in it. He will spend most of his time hidding.
3.After shedding leave the cribo alone. Place the F/T pinkie right in front of the hole and leave it over night. If not eaten remove it and try scenting with fish smell.
The same advice given to you was handed to me. I now have very large health BT Cribos that eat anything,anytime.

Good luck and be patient. Your little one will eat.

Leaving prey items inside the cage too long; I am probably the one who has you all confused about this subject. Sorry. For neonates, it is often nessecary to leave a food item in the cage over night. They must feel secure, and safe before they will eat. This translates to dark, and closed in for the snake. Thats the way they like it. Especialy at this age. I think i may have mis-spoken what I was trying to say before about not leaving food in too long. You had said that you left one in there for several days I think. And in my opinion, for what it's worth, that's not good. Overnight is O.K. but I personaly would not leave one in there any longer than that. I have never seen a snake eat anything which has been in the cage with it longer than that, and you don't need the bacteria which will build up. You are better off to throw that one away, wait till next evening, and put in a new one. When I said if he dosen't eat within ten or fifteen minutes, he won't,{i think that wuz me?}, What I meant was, that if a snake is ready to eat, it will usualy do so right away. Not always, but usualy. Most snakes that I have seen, will eat right away if they are hungry, and you give them what they want, how they want it. Some snakes, like baby drys are pickier than others, and it may take some patience and good advice to crack the code. But once you do, it will be o.k.

If he is going into shed, I'd say that may very well be the problem. Some of my snakes will eat no matter what time of the month it is; LOL But my indies will not eat when their eyes are cloudy, and they usualy stop feeding before there are any visible color changes at all. Many times they have refused to eat, and I would not no why, but then in a few days the eyes would turn blue, and I knew what was up. It seems that they know when they are getting ready to shed long before we do. Their bodies are going through changes that we cannot see.

Every time you pick that animal up, or even look in at it, you cause it to feel fear. That causes a LOT of stress for a tiny baby animal like that. My advice would be to set up the small cage, and absolutely leave it alone! Until after it sheds. Then brain a pinky, and try it. If that dosen't work, cmon back. Somebody here will know what to do. Hope this helps,
Tony.

Man - I'll tell you what - all of you are great. This is a wonderful forum. You all have been so much help. I really do apreciate everything you have done. I'm quite sure you will hear from me soon. Thanks!