Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i have a brown snake that i caught and i was going to keep it in the same tank as my baby copperhead..the tank is very large 3 feet x3feet x 28 in hight and i want to make sure this snake wont eat my copperhead..i know the copperhead wont eat the brown but even if it did i dont care but i need to make sure brown snakes dont eat other snakes..thanks in advance for any help.????

I realy would not worry about the brown eating the copper, but I would bet the copper would eat the brownn. Copperheads are not realy picky in their diet. They will eat other snakes if gien a chance I'm sure. It would be a big brown to eat a baby copper. Babaies range from 7" to 10" and have the normal "viper" bulk to them so I would thing it would be to wide. But then again snaks acan eat big... BIG things. I would not reaaly do it because the brown would not find food so well in a big enclosure. Got any pics of your copperhead. and which subspecies?
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Justin

7-10 in is quite a liberal idea of the size of young copperheads. I have seen quite a few closer to 4 or 5 inches. I still don't think it possible that a brown could eat one. I had kept browns with both cottonmouths and copperheads as well and they never really had problems. None of the ate the other. If the copperheads are given a steady diet of rodents, they likely have little reason to eat another snake. After all, I have found these 2 species together countless times in the wild. The only concern I would have are parasites or something of the sort.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

Ok...First of all Mike's right. Browns don't eat snakes. Second; yes the copperhead could eat or just kill the brown. Third; mixing two snakes of the same species is bad enough, but this involves two snakes that require very different care. Not a good idea to keep them together.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I never said browns could or would eat other snakes. I just wanted to make the point that baby copperheads aren't always 7 inches long. The care requirements aren't that different for copperheads and browns. After all, same habitat, same conditions, same boards, same roads. The only difference I have really seen is diet. I have had success with both species in the exact same conditions and kept them together when I was younger. As I said though, parasites and disease are a better reason to stop. I wouldn't mix them now a days, but I never had problems in the past.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

Copperheads are not a fossorial (burrowing) species. They are surface hunters and require normal (dry tank...like for ratsnakes) conditions.

Unlike the Copperhead Brown Snakes hunt in the loose upper ground litter and soil levels for worms and soft inverts. They require moist (potting soil)in their tanks so they can burrow.

Both species can be found in the same geogaphical range...but their individual niches are quite different. To say they have similar reqirements is like comparing the needs of an earthworm to that of a lizard.

I have kept both species many times over the last 30 years.

Your point?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

When I said diet, I sort of assumed that you would get the niche part. Browns are more of burrowers and copperheads forage on the surface. So what? Most tanks have 2 inches or so of substrate (or at least my tanks do) to allow for any snake to burrow if it cares to. They do have the same geographical range and can even be found under the same boards/logs/cover in the same area. I have kept both snakes on potting soil, aspen, bedabeast, and other soil like products. I kept them at the same temps, same humidity. After all, if you find them together repeatedly in the wild, their requirements habitat-wise can not be that different. But I suppose that since browns eat more soft bodied inverts and may tunnel and inch or two underground, they need a TOTALLY different set up than a copperhead. Give me a break. If you set up the tanks the same, I suppose one or the other would die?
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

If that is what you think then maybe you better do some research. I have found Ratsnakes, Skunks, Brown snakes, rattlers and mice under the same piece of tin. Niches in nature are like apartments. They often bring species with different needs in close contact.

As to your question....

I definitly do not recommend keeping Copperheads on potting soil (or even using it as a substrate. Feces from the copperhead (and it's prey animals would soak into the soil so cleaning becomes more difficult).

This can result in mouth rot (from injesting the soil...and irritation from sand particles caught in the mouth) Body rot (from the neccessary moisture that the Brown would need) and other fungal diseases. The odds of a Copperhead developing a blockage from injested detrius is also increased.

On the otherhand, it is perfect for maintaing a healthy Brown snake population, partially because the very food that Brown's eat help in the cleanup. Also since Browns live in this niche in nature, they are much more resistant to possible disease from it. Ever watch a Brown eat a worm? They suck it in like spagetti. The slime from the worm acts as a lubricating agent so the soil slides off as the Brown injests the worm. This works especially well because of the Brown snake's small head.

A Brown snake on cypress mulch, aspen, or in a pinch-newspaper (which would be good for Copperheads) would suffer from dehydration and also would have a hard time of it since hunting worms would be more difficult. It is very difficult to get a fresh caught Brown to take worms out in the open (unlike a Copperhead) they are shy snakes. They need to burrow. Copperheads are much easier to get started.

Two inches of soil makes a very big difference in nature, and in a man made habitat. Understanding the difference and why is basic husbantry.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,
I have kept brown snakes on all sorts of substrate, newspaper, napkins, paper towels, potting soil, bark mixture/potting soil, sand/potting soil, not once have I had a snake dehydrate, or have trouble eating or finding food.

I disagree with "They need to burrow", brown snakes don't need to burrow, some may prefer it. Although the ones that I have kept(300 )didn't really burrow that often, they just hid under rocks.

I also disagree once more with you saying they are shy snakes, I've had freshly caught brown snakes take worms or slugs from my fingers.

Just my 2 cents, people have different experiences.
Michael
Michael's Place

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www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Michael_Fedzen@hotmail.com

Not my experience with them at all....I'm afraid I can't come up with an impressive number like "300" I can maybe vouch for a couple of dozen (who keeps count?)of either species. I don't concentrate on a narrow range of species.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I wasn't saying exactly 300, there was a plus mark after that, who would keep count of that?
Michael
Michael's Place

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www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Michael_Fedzen@hotmail.com

One of the most tragic losses I have seen in my time as a collector was that of the only leucistic Brown I have ever seen. I collected it in Margate. For several months this snake thrived in a gallon jar of moist potting soil where it happily burrowed and fed on regular earthworms.

A very well known and respected reptile store traded me for this snake. Once they had it they ignored my instructions and put it on a conventional (wood chip) bottom medium. It was dead within two weeks.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I could've sworn you said it escaped. That sucks either way, think about it, if you would've kept the snake, by now you could have het for leucistic babies or even leucistic babies. Would've been an awesome thing to see.
Michael
Michael's Place

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www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Michael_Fedzen@hotmail.com

Hello Frank,

Experience and knowledge is everything, with over 30 years of experience, I am sure you are one of the most experienced and knowledgeable snake keeper. Most people in this forum don't even have half of your experience or they don't even born yet while you started raising snakes. It's sad to see how inexperience young people try to present themselves as expert and don't have the patience to listen to the more experienced herper's valuable advice. I would say your opinion in copperheads and brown snakes is the most accurate and appropriate. There is some States law stipulate that whoever catch the wild snake need to provide the enclosure close to their native habitat environment. We all have the responsibility to provide the best care for the wild caught snakes but some folks just ignore their duty. The brown snake survive dehydration in the wrong set up doesn't mean it's health status is fine, there is some hidden problems eventually will show up and the snake is the one to suffer.

I have witness a tragedy of my own when I caught a northern redbelly snake in Spring about couple years ago. I placed the snake in the tank with the repti carpet, I fed the redbelly snake almost daily with slugs and change it's warterbowl everyday to avoid bacteria build up. I also provide rocks and logs for it to hide so that it's life won't be so stressful. The snake seems in perfect health until it gave birth to it's babies in Summer, guess what happened? All 7 babies were born dead. There must be some important element was missing in the tank set up that caused this tragedy to happen. I eventually released the redbelly snake so that it can continue it's productive life.

What are you doing just jumping in and implying that I am some inexperienced kid? I have been keeping snakes ever since I could walk and I know a fair deal. I never claimed or acted like an expert. I tell people what works for me. I do agree with much of what Frank says and I have no personal bias against him. I am just saying that I have kept brown snakes in aspen and they have done fine. They were never dehyrdrated, nor did they end up dead after a week or two. They actually were quite healthy and I kept them up until the time that I received a coral snake. And I have kept copperheads on bed a beast and potting soil. As long as the substrate is a bit drier, I havn't had a problem.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

I am sorry if anyone feel being targeted. The reason for me being here is to listen, learn and share.

Thank you.

Sometimes it's really like being a detective. You win some and then others die for something dumb that you didn't notice or understand.

A couple of years back I obtained a very rare colubrid from Suriname that was called (by the dealer)a Green Hognose. It was a near mimic of Bothrops bilineatus. It was most likely a Waglerophis sp. As it was obviously an animal from a very moist habitat I set it up on damp spagnum and offered frogs and fish. One day I was in a hurry and grabed the wrong bottle of water to mist it...One that had not been treated to have the Cloromine removed. I came home four hours later to find a dead snake.

My speciality in the hobby is newly discovered and unusual species. Half these "kids" could talk my ear off on breeding genetics and I would be lost...and Cobras? Never excited me enough to really look into them. There is a lot in this hobby I have yet to learn.

I don't think it is as much experience, as it is that I chose an area that is not so often explored...and I have been lucky enough to see more because of the time I spent in the (now lost) wilds of Florida...and my local dealers know about my vice for the unusual...and keep bringing in new species to thoroughly exploit my wallet (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

In the wild a brown snake's main prey is slugs, then earthworms, then snails. Like Justin said however, copperheads will take the brown snake as food if it got a chance. It's up to you how you keep them, but brown snakes require little space, think about it.
Michael
Michael's Place

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www.freewebs.com/mikesnake
Michael_Fedzen@hotmail.com