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father classic male yuma hibanded king ,mother hi-yellow patternless specked,(l.g.yumensisXl.g.holbrooki)
basically its my opinion on the ssp of l.g.splendida and how it originated as getula moved more and more into west meeting w/l.g.californaie,yumensis,nitida,nigritus and intergrading w/l.holbrooki specks as they moved west upon years of intergradation amongst the other ssp in the area which are cali,yuma,nitida,nigritus eveovled into what we now regognize as l.g.splendida at anyrate my yumaXspeck babies look allmost identical to deserts(l.g.splendida) as i figured they would now lets say i cross a l.g.nigritus w/a l.holbrooki ,then take babies from both which would be L.G.YUMENSISxHOLBROOKI INTERGRADE THEN CROSSED WITH NIGRITUSxHOLBROOKI, would you not essentially i have l.g.splendida(desertkings)
same thing has been done w/flakings and l.g.g and obks,,, so
i guess my question is that the genetic makeup of each getula ssp so different?are there any really mutts?
my opinion is getula is getula is getula.
i also beleive say l.g.californaie dont intergrade w/say l.g.fla.because it is that naturally their ranges dont overlap. its prooven in ALL ranges of getula ssp when areas overlap intergradation does occur,naturally, so im inclined if there ranges did overlap naturally we would see nat.itergradation of the 2 again im not saying hybrids im talking getula.and natural intergradation, some may say mutt,or UNnatural intergradation(which jus never made sense to me?)but honestly how does everyone think the albino gene came from is it honestly thought/beleived that all the ssp of getula that now have albinism in them,are so called "pure" and that were w/c documented?albinos?then established in colonies all documented,sure some have but really were seeing albino getula of every type now?!!!
i know lots af fla.king morphs are that way from in the 70s when the albino gene came w/the calis and breed into several lines then breed gettin the lemonkings and on&on then thru several generations basically breeding the cali out if you will but having the albino,amel,hypo, gene to then have the appearance pures albino ssp, through line breeding so are these mutts? lookin for honest feedback?i would like to say a getula or calligaster bred to a triangulum is what would consider a mutt and technically a hybrid as well ,im talking bout the group of getula as scientifically id'd are the genetics so different? its my theory they started on the eastern part of the continent and evovled and moved west over 10's of thousands of years developing the now what we name as specific ssp, but specifics genetics,,,hmmm
thomas davis
pleas excuse my typing,grammer,puncuation

she was bred to the yuma and pics will be soon hopefully;0soon anyway the babie do actually look like pure l.g.splendida, of course i would never represent them as such,pics soon!,,,,thomas

That is smokin'!!!
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Paul Snyder

Home

I always assumed they moved east from the southwest. No basis for that theory. What's odd about getula, is that it is confined to a relatively small latitude, yet it covers a huge range of habitats from east to west. From sub-tropical south Florida, to the plains of Kansas, to the deserts of Southern California, Arizona and Sonora, and everything along the way. If they can adapt so well to different habitats, why haven't they moved farther north in the east and farther south in the west, like triangulum? Any ideas?
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

A few months back I was reading an interesting post (backed by the proper research paper) that Colubrids from the King-rat-Bull group evolved from a common European ancestor (possibly what used to be known as Elaphe scalaris. This would indicate a east to west spread.

I think the thread was on the rat snake page.

The paper:

MOLECULAR SYSTEMATICS AND PHYLOGENY OF OLD AND NEW WORLD RATSNAKES, Elaphe AUCT., AND RELATED GENERA (REPTILIA, SQUAMATA,COLUBRIDAE)

Russian Journal of Herpetology Vol.9 No.2,2002,pp. 105-124

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thomas,your theory lacks evidence.Anecdotal sightings about phenotypic expression does not a ssp.make.Its always a good idea to read what others are posting on a forum before you add your 2 cents so you dont come across looking like either a fool or a know it all.There are lots of opinions on what a hybrid/cross/intergrade is and that we can agree.But you cant summarily lump all getula morphs and all into a statement about the purity without evidence.Yes,there those who will/have crossed the recessive genes into other races(THIS I approve of--trying to make a better snake)but to breed 2 snakes together that neither intergrade nor are in demand is foolish.
The problem with an open and equal forum like this is that everyone has the same clout,the same opportunity to make a statement.There is no asterisk beside your name stating that you dont know what you are talking about so there is a real chance of some other newby BELIEVING your anecdotes and they will bend them too when they repeat them.Its all about evidence.If you have any about any unpure getula morph breeding lets hear them.
There is a fossil record.They have been around FAR longet than the"10s of thousands of years"you state.There are names of people that have been breeding these snakes you casually regard as mutts for a very long time that would take offense to your statement.
New theories are great if they can lead to intelligent discussion.If they lead to bashing and name calling nothing good can be accomplished.If you check the history on this forum you will know what has been discussed before,and this may be a great place to gather evidence to throw in my face!I think the people left(lol)on this forum will agree we TRY to coexist.Just my opinion,Jeff

well jeff first is:There are names of people that have been breeding these snakes you casually regard as mutts for a very long time that would take offense to your statement.: i never said they were mutts NEVER??? triangulumXgetula is what i consider a mutt or hybrid if you will, now as far as my breeding l.g.holbrooki to l.g.yumensis,,,,, whos to say that along with the mix of l.g.nitida,nigritus,californaei and several generations is not how the ssp l.g.splendida was created?and established as its own ssp?im not into the hybrid thing but its my opinion breeding the different ssp of getula is perfectly natural and statements like "pure" seem silly to me, and again the genetics of all getula ssp imho are not that different or at least not different enough to call them mutts,,its unnatural to breed a triangulum to a getula or corn,pit,etc,etc, thats when i beleive genetics might be comprimised, my whole point is/was getula is getula is getula
like the ga easterns w/all the orange wide bands everyones lovin these days do you honestly beleive that is "pure" l.g.g.?its very obvious to me they have floridana in them maybe goini as well somewhere down the line,again my opinion, i just cant swallow all the "pure" ssp when its obvious at least to me none are "pure"
also yr statement about breeding 2 ssp that naturally dont intergrade whos to say they wouldnt if their nat.ranges overlapped? all other getula where ranges cross intergrade anyway its all just my opinion
forgive the typos,mispelling puncuation, etc
thomas davis

I think nay subspecies comes about via isolation and then evolution. Once an animal starts evolving getting its own characteristics it can and will become eventually genetically unique to the ancestral animal but still maintains enough genetics to put it in the species. If you read Krysko's work he was able to tell genetically the difference between a Eastern King and a Florida King even though they are both getula they have evolved differently with color not being the only difference. There are scale differences as well. The Black and orange banded Eastern you refer to much like mine Im sure you are alluding to probably has some Apalachicola genetics in it. Both of the Grandparent animals are wildcaught and from Counties in extreme south Georgia (Echols Co. and Tift Co.) so its no stretch that Apalachicola genetics would be present in wild populations. One thing to note on that animal and others from that stock is that only a few come out looking like that. As far as looking like it has Floridana in it I dont see it. Florida Kings have high crossbar counts and go thru ontogenetic change much like Apalachicola Kings. The Eastern I have has no scale lightening going on at all and its over 3' long. Back to the other discussion... You mentioned that all the subs would intergrade if the had overlapping ranges and yes Im sure they would but the big thing is they dont. Eastern Kings and Cal Kings have been seperated for a long time and genetically they are different but also similar. Also I dont think you can do in anaquarium what nature has taken thousands of years to do and thats evolution its just not that simple. Ill tell you what go catch a couple of wolves and make yourself a poodle . I mean they are all wolves right ? It took who knows how long to get a poodle out of a wolf and that was done by man so think how long it takes nature to make a Eastern King different than a speckled King ??? Also you mentioned how to make appearance wise the easiest of the getula how what would you mix to creat a Cal King ? or a Striped one for that matter ? How about an Eastern ? Its not as simplistic as you are making it out. Scientest cant even say for sure how evolution works because its not readily seen and it takes to damn long get results lol.

Keith

>>well jeff first is:There are names of people that have been breeding these snakes you casually regard as mutts for a very long time that would take offense to your statement.: i never said they were mutts NEVER??? triangulumXgetula is what i consider a mutt or hybrid if you will, now as far as my breeding l.g.holbrooki to l.g.yumensis,,,,, whos to say that along with the mix of l.g.nitida,nigritus,californaei and several generations is not how the ssp l.g.splendida was created?and established as its own ssp?im not into the hybrid thing but its my opinion breeding the different ssp of getula is perfectly natural and statements like "pure" seem silly to me, and again the genetics of all getula ssp imho are not that different or at least not different enough to call them mutts,,its unnatural to breed a triangulum to a getula or corn,pit,etc,etc, thats when i beleive genetics might be comprimised, my whole point is/was getula is getula is getula
>>like the ga easterns w/all the orange wide bands everyones lovin these days do you honestly beleive that is "pure" l.g.g.?its very obvious to me they have floridana in them maybe goini as well somewhere down the line,again my opinion, i just cant swallow all the "pure" ssp when its obvious at least to me none are "pure"
>>also yr statement about breeding 2 ssp that naturally dont intergrade whos to say they wouldnt if their nat.ranges overlapped? all other getula where ranges cross intergrade anyway its all just my opinion
>>forgive the typos,mispelling puncuation, etc
>>thomas davis
>>
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I think nay subspecies comes about via isolation and then evolution. Once an animal starts evolving getting its own characteristics it can and will become eventually genetically unique to the ancestral animal but still maintains enough genetics to put it in the species. If you read Krysko's work he was able to tell genetically the difference between a Eastern King and a Florida King even though they are both getula they have evolved differently with color not being the only difference. There are scale differences as well. The Black and orange banded Eastern you refer to much like mine Im sure you are alluding to probably has some Apalachicola genetics in it. Both of the Grandparent animals are wildcaught and from Counties in extreme south Georgia (Echols Co. and Tift Co.) so its no stretch that Apalachicola genetics would be present in wild populations. One thing to note on that animal and others from that stock is that only a few come out looking like that. As far as looking like it has Floridana in it I dont see it. Florida Kings have high crossbar counts and go thru ontogenetic change much like Apalachicola Kings. The Eastern I have has no scale lightening going on at all and its over 3' long. Back to the other discussion... You mentioned that all the subs would intergrade if the had overlapping ranges and yes Im sure they would but the big thing is they dont. Eastern Kings and Cal Kings have been seperated for a long time and genetically they are different but also similar. Also I dont think you can do in anaquarium what nature has taken thousands of years to do and thats evolution its just not that simple. Ill tell you what go catch a couple of wolves and make yourself a poodle . I mean they are all wolves right ? It took who knows how long to get a poodle out of a wolf and that was done by man so think how long it takes nature to make a Eastern King different than a speckled King ??? Also you mentioned how to make appearance wise the easiest of the getula how what would you mix to creat a Cal King ? or a Striped one for that matter ? How about an Eastern ? Its not as simplistic as you are making it out. Scientest cant even say for sure how evolution works because its not readily seen and it takes to damn long get results lol.

Keith
well keith as much as you think i was talking about your eastern,,, i wasnt, everyone is liking the orangebanded easterns and i just beleive those animals have floridana and or goini in them thats all, yes ive read and reread kryskos paper i understand the differances.that is not what i was reffereing to.
You mentioned that all the subs would intergrade if the had overlapping ranges and yes Im sure they would but the big thing is they dont. ahh but in an aquarium its very possible and done quite frequently, are these what you consider mutts?or genetic mutations of a ssp.?if so why??im talking only getula ssp.only here.
also i never said or implyed it was "simplistic"?but simply through intergradation of the different ssp is how some ssp came about, and how about the albino gene do you honestly beleive that all the albino ssp of getula that now have albinos in them are descended from "pure" ssp? or was the albino gene introduced into all the different ssp.through intergradation?
and the wolf/poodle thing?im floored by that one,,,,,
peace
thomas davis

>>Keith
>>well keith as much as you think i was talking about your eastern,,, i wasnt, everyone is liking the orangebanded easterns and i just beleive those animals have floridana and or goini in them thats all, yes ive read and reread kryskos paper i understand the differances.that is not what i was reffereing to.

But you said all Getula are basically the same and Krysko's research shows genetic differences.

>>You mentioned that all the subs would intergrade if the had overlapping ranges and yes Im sure they would but the big thing is they dont. ahh but in an aquarium its very possible and done quite frequently, are these what you consider mutts?or genetic mutations of a ssp.?if so why??im talking only getula ssp.only here.

I never referred to anything as a mutt but if the animals dont have ranges that overlap naturally then they are simply unnatural intergrades. The different subspecies are evolving now and have been for sometime.

>>also i never said or implyed it was "simplistic"?but simply through intergradation of the different ssp is how some ssp came about, and how about the albino gene do you honestly beleive that all the albino ssp of getula that now have albinos in them are descended from "pure" ssp? or was the albino gene introduced into all the different ssp.through intergradation?

Who can know how the albino gene got in there. What about Lavendar albino Cals and reg albino Cals ? Their mutation is different and doesnt breed true ? Why not ? That kinda quashes the theory that the Albino gene has traveled via intergration doesnt it?

>>and the wolf/poodle thing?im floored by that one,,,,,

My point is Thomas things dont happen overnight like you thinking youve duplicated nature and evolution at your house. It takes lots and lots of time luck and who knows what else.

Keith
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keith:My point is Thomas things dont happen overnight like you thinking youve duplicated nature and evolution at your house.,nevermind i NEVER said i had duplicated evolution in my house thanks for the sarcasm but you have completely missed my point,i get yours though all ssp of getula are pure ssp and intergrading them naturally or unnaturally is wrong and pollutes the gene pool which 100000's
of years of evolution and nature have created
how's it go lollollol thats it huh?
,,,,,
webster:intergrade:an intermediate form, to merge GRADUALLY one with another through a CONTINUOUS series of intermediate forms
,,,,
hybrid: an offspring of two animals or plants of DIFFERENT races,breeds,varieties,species or genera
,,,,,
hmmmmm would nonlocales say nj getula to a md getula fall into that description,,technicality i suppose
,,,,,
subspecies: a subdivision of a species
a taxonomic category that ranks immedietely below a species and designates a morphologically OR physiologically distinguishable and geographically isolated group whose members interbreed successfully with those of other ssp of the same species where their ranges overlap
,,,,,,,
thomas davis

>>>>Keith
>>>>well keith as much as you think i was talking about your eastern,,, i wasnt, everyone is liking the orangebanded easterns and i just beleive those animals have floridana and or goini in them thats all, yes ive read and reread kryskos paper i understand the differances.that is not what i was reffereing to.
>>
>>But you said all Getula are basically the same and Krysko's research shows genetic differences.
>>
>>>>You mentioned that all the subs would intergrade if the had overlapping ranges and yes Im sure they would but the big thing is they dont. ahh but in an aquarium its very possible and done quite frequently, are these what you consider mutts?or genetic mutations of a ssp.?if so why??im talking only getula ssp.only here.
>>
>>I never referred to anything as a mutt but if the animals dont have ranges that overlap naturally then they are simply unnatural intergrades. The different subspecies are evolving now and have been for sometime.
>>
>>>>also i never said or implyed it was "simplistic"?but simply through intergradation of the different ssp is how some ssp came about, and how about the albino gene do you honestly beleive that all the albino ssp of getula that now have albinos in them are descended from "pure" ssp? or was the albino gene introduced into all the different ssp.through intergradation?
>>
>>Who can know how the albino gene got in there. What about Lavendar albino Cals and reg albino Cals ? Their mutation is different and doesnt breed true ? Why not ? That kinda quashes the theory that the Albino gene has traveled via intergration doesnt it?
>>
>>>>and the wolf/poodle thing?im floored by that one,,,,,
>>
>>My point is Thomas things dont happen overnight like you thinking youve duplicated nature and evolution at your house. It takes lots and lots of time luck and who knows what else.
>>
>>
>>Keith
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