Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just got back into town from spending a week leading high school students on a field herpetology class in northern Michigan (quite successful...caught loads of herps)...tough job but someone has to do it. I saw Robert Bruce's post on his aspirations of breeding 15 females this coming year and raised the continuing thought/issue as to the critical need in developing a studbook of this species among private and public collections. There have been some recent discussions on developing a web site that addresses this issue for which I am in full support of and would be happy to get actively involved with. Although it is going to be difficult, but not impossible, to trace back various lineages, with the possible glut of baby indigos coming into the market, I fear that continued inbreeding is going to be a real possibility (if not a reality) due to an already small gene pool but the potential for much inbreeding taking place in the available captive setting. Something needs to be done quick. Sure would be nice to be able to get some fresh bloodlines into selected captive breeding programs but I think that is going to be a tough sell. Personally, I deliberately only breed a couple of females each year as I don't want to contribute to influxing the market with too many babies, however, that is just my philosophy and don't look down on others who are looking at mass breeding them (if that is possible). I just want to make sure that couperi doesn't fall the way of corn snakes, ball pythons, burmese pythons and many other species being inbred to death. Rob

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

>>Just got back into town from spending a week leading high school students on a field herpetology class in northern Michigan (quite successful...caught loads of herps)...tough job but someone has to do it. I saw Robert Bruce's post on his aspirations of breeding 15 females this coming year and raised the continuing thought/issue as to the critical need in developing a studbook of this species among private and public collections. There have been some recent discussions on developing a web site that addresses this issue for which I am in full support of and would be happy to get actively involved with. Although it is going to be difficult, but not impossible, to trace back various lineages, with the possible glut of baby indigos coming into the market, I fear that continued inbreeding is going to be a real possibility (if not a reality) due to an already small gene pool but the potential for much inbreeding taking place in the available captive setting. Something needs to be done quick. Sure would be nice to be able to get some fresh bloodlines into selected captive breeding programs but I think that is going to be a tough sell. Personally, I deliberately only breed a couple of females each year as I don't want to contribute to influxing the market with too many babies, however, that is just my philosophy and don't look down on others who are looking at mass breeding them (if that is possible). I just want to make sure that couperi doesn't fall the way of corn snakes, ball pythons, burmese pythons and many other species being inbred to death. Rob
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, IL

Yeah, I'm still going to put together a website that will serve as a repository for data on all Drymarchon in private and public collections in the U.S. It will link with indigosnakes.com (Doug has graciously agreed to that). The plan is to include as much trackable data as possible, including a stud book. It is going to be a huge undertaking (lots of coding) and will take a while to complete, but it will get done. I'll have some help, Jeff Nichols has actually already acquired the domain, and has generously volunteered his help. I plan to discuss it with him further in Daytona, and maybe we can actually get started on design and construction shortly after I get back from there.

I think that, in addition to the stud book data, there is a tremendous amount of knowledge and data out there in bits and pieces and in this guys head and that guys records. If it can be pulled together and combined with ongoing study data, I think it can provide some answers to questions such as the effects of diet, temperature, age of breeder snakes, humidity, photoperiod, incubation conditions, etc., on breeding and egg production, and things like egg-binding, hatch rates, etc.
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hey folks,

I like the idea of tracking blood lineage and characteristics associated with various bloodlines. I got to thinking though, that the widespread use of such data could lead to increased inbreeding. Supposing one bloodline coming from one pair from one breeder was found to readily start eating on their own reliably as hatchlings. Everyone would want that bloodline, and bloodlines that were difficult feeders would not be preserved. Then some other bloodline (of easterns lets say) had solid red halfway down the top and bottom of the body. Same result. Then people would begin crossing the two bloodlines trying to get offspring with both characteristics. Then, people would begin crossing the offspring of the first cross (that had both characteristics) with each other. More inbreeding. At some point, all the captive bred indigos in the world would have all of the desired characteristics, and they would essentially be all clones of each other. Nobody would want the rest of the hatchlings that didn't have all the desired characteristics (they would be "feeder" indigos) (just joking).

You know, if one guy has one male indigo that is by far the most awesome indigo ever seen, then everybody is going to want babies from that father and only that father. Since the Y-chromosome does not cross over during meiosis, everybodys male snake would have a Y-chromosome identical to the original awesome male. That is kind of scary to me, as natural variability would be reduced.

We really need to find a way to obtain fresh genetic input from wild (eastern) indigo populations. As much as it is unlawful, that motorcycle rider who snatches an eastern and stuffs it into his backpack should almost be considered a hero to us.

Anyways, I worry about causing a glut, breeding 15 females this year. Maybe I will try to keep it to 12. The problem however is not more indigos, it is finding good owners for them, and not causing a big drop in their value. More people should own indigos, particularly easterns. That would ensure more genetic diversity. The biggest threat to genetic diversity is small populations. We all know that don't we? Easterns are so cool that I am surprised more people don't want and own them. The issue of importance is that someone like myself, who envisions "mass production" of indigos needs to generate popular interest in the animal equal to the increased number he or she produces. Write articles, give talks, take snakes to schools etc.

Robert Bruce.

>>Hey folks,
>>
>>I like the idea of tracking blood lineage and characteristics associated with various bloodlines. I got to thinking though, that the widespread use of such data could lead to increased inbreeding. Supposing one bloodline coming from one pair from one breeder was found to readily start eating on their own reliably as hatchlings. Everyone would want that bloodline, and bloodlines that were difficult feeders would not be preserved. Then some other bloodline (of easterns lets say) had solid red halfway down the top and bottom of the body. Same result. Then people would begin crossing the two bloodlines trying to get offspring with both characteristics. Then, people would begin crossing the offspring of the first cross (that had both characteristics) with each other. More inbreeding. At some point, all the captive bred indigos in the world would have all of the desired characteristics, and they would essentially be all clones of each other. Nobody would want the rest of the hatchlings that didn't have all the desired characteristics (they would be "feeder" indigos) (just joking).
>>
>>You know, if one guy has one male indigo that is by far the most awesome indigo ever seen, then everybody is going to want babies from that father and only that father. Since the Y-chromosome does not cross over during meiosis, everybodys male snake would have a Y-chromosome identical to the original awesome male. That is kind of scary to me, as natural variability would be reduced.
>>
>>We really need to find a way to obtain fresh genetic input from wild (eastern) indigo populations. As much as it is unlawful, that motorcycle rider who snatches an eastern and stuffs it into his backpack should almost be considered a hero to us.
>>
>>Anyways, I worry about causing a glut, breeding 15 females this year. Maybe I will try to keep it to 12. The problem however is not more indigos, it is finding good owners for them, and not causing a big drop in their value. More people should own indigos, particularly easterns. That would ensure more genetic diversity. The biggest threat to genetic diversity is small populations. We all know that don't we? Easterns are so cool that I am surprised more people don't want and own them. The issue of importance is that someone like myself, who envisions "mass production" of indigos needs to generate popular interest in the animal equal to the increased number he or she produces. Write articles, give talks, take snakes to schools etc.
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

Anything can be abuse or misused. I don't really think that's a reason not to do it, though. And, lots of people keeping and breeding a particular species really doesn't do a whole lot for diversity if they are all closely related. They'll just be inbred in more collections. The idea is to try to get an idea of who has which bloodlines so there are more options for collaborative breeding projects to promote and protect genetic diversity, not just to breed for a particular trait.

I'm not so sure that I agree that the guy that snatches a wild indigo should be considered a hero. I don't think we have that much information yet, to be able to make that sort of leap. We may very well find out that there are plenty of diverse bloodlines out there that there would be no need for taking wild animals for some years to come. Then again, we may find that the captive bloodlines are already in trouble. At this point, I don't think we know. I know in the case of D.c.rubidus we are quite likely already in trouble. I also know that the Mexican Government will sometimes issue special collecting and exporting permits, so there may be a chance at some point to get some fresh bloodline for them (if the moon and stars line up just right). With Easterns, I think that if a valid case is presented to the USFWS and the appropriate state agencies, there may be some small chance of acquiring new bloodlines if that turns out to be a real need. I think that if that is to happen, it needs to happen legally. Then the animals would come from populations that wouldn't suffer from one or two animals being removed. Maybe even animals that are being displaced by habitat destruction for commercial construction projects or something like that. The guy that just snatches a wild indigo is a criminal and should be villified, not made into a hero (just my opinion). He has no idea what the effect of removing that animal from the wild population will be.

-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I agree that the potential for further inbreeding exists. However, I don't "think" it will be a problem. Most people who are currently breeding indigos know how awesome these snakes are & realize the importance of genetic diversity. They have seen for years the damage that has been done to other species & I believe they will do the right thing.
I also understand that there will be more people owning them in the future, people who may not care but, we should be able to police the situation with the breeding records by requiring all breeders who submit their info to the data base to additionally track who the animals have been sold to.

I agree that anyone poaching a wild indigo should be prosecuted & not applauded.

Robert, did you see my response to your question regarding the rosy incident?

Eric

Great points OH,

Fact is we really don’t know what the situation is out there for any captive Dry population. Nor are we likely to unless this effort is undertaken.

Data collection is paramount to any effort whether it is ultimately determined through analysis that the captive bloodlines are diverse enough to be healthy or whether through analysis it is determined that special dispensation needs to be pursued through applicable governing bodies to augment the bloodlines. To support either, the data needs to be available to measure the current situation and support the decision.

Speculation as to either case regarding the captive population is exactly that--speculation, and will be unacceptable to any decision making body. The first step in getting out of the woods is determining where you are…then, based on that data point, where you need to go. Right now nobody has a clue where we are and as such, we are unable to move forward in an intelligent, disciplined, and purposeful manner.

When uncertain, when in doubt-- Run in circles scream and shout.

Regards,
Jeff Nichols

Here Here!!! Very well said! I could not agree more.
T.
-----
"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amonst themseleves".