Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In response to a long thread below:
A paper was published a while back on a series of successful operations. Successful defined here as all snakes recovered from surgery almost straight away and without any severe pain, discomfort, etc and all continue to remain in immaculate health.
That paper is online at:
http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1.htm
Based on the content of this paper and ongoing results, the procedure (done properly) cannot be condemned on the basis of adverse affects or cruelty on the captive snake.
Criticisms of the procedure on this and other forums deal with a small number of main issues along the lines as follows:
1/ For the wrong reasons. As in to "show off", make false claims of handling skills and the like.
These are inevitable and yes, some ops may be done for the wrong reasons. However this is not reason to blanket condemn it. The same argument taken to the logical end can be used to ban cars, guns, and most other things. Misuse of a car by one person does not mean cars per se should be banned.
2/ Claims against improper operations (cruelty) are valid and the best defence against these is to make sure that the proper procedures are available to those who have valid reasons to engage them. Banning the operations will simply send them "underground" and perhaps increase likelihood of so-called backyard jobs which are more likely to botch and harm the reptile.
3/ The next major argument against the venomoid procedure is that it is "not natural", removes the snakes beauty and so on. These are value judgements by an individual and must not be imposed on others or used to try to stop the venomoid procedure. Persons on this list should be aware that the same "not natural" argument was used to ban the private (and sometimes public) keeping of reptiles and other creatures on the basis that it is "not natural" to put them in cages.
I assume most posting here do not advocate the banning of caged reptiles on the basis of "not natural".
In terms of the venomoid arguments (for/against) all three above cannot be totally upheld by the antis or totally rebutted by the "pros" but ultimately must be decided on a case by case basis realising that there will be dissent among people.
But surely the hostile flames can be resisted.
Finally, there are numerous other issues that have arisen in the wake of the first successful series of operations here in Australia that work both for and against the argument.
The against part relates to whom and when the operation is done and the management of the snakes pre and post operation (the operation itself now being an effective non-issue as it is apparantly risk-free for the snake), including selection of snakes for surgery.
Another issue to emerge fairly rapidly has been the BENEFITS TO THE CAPTIVE SNAKE arising from venomoid surgery.
This I have not seen broached on this list, but I have raised it elsewhere.
The benefits to the snake are measurable and identifiable and arise from the fact that the snake can be routinely "free handled" as in mid body support with hands as opposed to sticks, tongs and neck grabbing, the latter of which while manageable for the handler in terms of avoiding fatal bite, do stress the snake more than "free handling".
No one can deny this assertion, the best evidence for which is that no competant snake keeper uses hooks and tongs when handling placid pythons.
Venomoid snakes "free handled" rapidly become more tractable and well-adjusted captives than their "hot" counterparts and the magnitude of this benefit far outweighs the short-term discomfort experienced by the snake at time of operation (assuming the operation is done properly).
This benefit to the captive snakes themselves will ultimately be the main driver for the demand for venomoid snakes, not the various other reasons or excuses advanced on this and most other forums (by the antis).
ALL THE BEST
Venomoid surgery - Trouble free operations

i like this guy.. finally someone with a clue... thank you sir and bravo well put ... i was going to have to explain the entire surgery to these guys cause they didnt get it... so thanks again

A Fellow Reptile Keeper With A Clue,
cappinboa

You are just rediculous..... There is no right reason to make venomoids..... Any reason I have heard any of you void supporters spit out is nonsence.... You want to educate little kids with snakes, use a ball python and show them pictures of venomous snakes..... Then there is the "i wanna keep a cobra but I want to be safe...." thing..... You know what, if you cant keep one hot you should not keep it at all..... If you have kids in the house and are worried about their safty, dont keep a venomous species.... If you are that unsure of your handling skills, dont keep a venomous species.... If you can not afford proper caging and handling tools, dont keep a venomous species.....
I noticed in some of your post that you say we (people that do not remove our snakes venom glands) have toys.... But why else would you void a venomous snake???? I know why.... So you can hold it and feel like a cool guy.... I know I do not feel the need to play with any of my snakes and I also do not take them out of the cage to show anyone..... If someone wants to see my gaboons, rhinos, and puffs they can see them just fine through the glass..... I do not know one hotkeeper that would take a dangerous snake out of its cage while there were inexperianced, untrained people around..... Maybe you should think about what you say before it actually leaves your big mouth.....

Thanks GreggMM for spelling out the wrong reasons to have venomoid snakes and or to perform the operation (or have it done).
These are the "horror stories" widely touted.
I have heard similar horror stories used to advocate banning of cars.
... run over innocent people. Get drunk and run the car into a tree. Hoon at high speed down a pedestrian mall.
Right reasons?
To get from A to B...To carry goods that otherwise cannot be shifted. To move a disabled person around, etc.
With venomoid surgery now routine and with measurable benefits to snakes, there is a time and place for it (in my humble opinion), including as a safety feature for public showing and/or when risk of theft may be present. In some countries including Australia, the keeper is liable for manslaughter/ murder charges if a deadly snake is stolen and then bites the thief and kills them.
It is also to the benefit of the snake if frequently handled for shows (like 5 or more days a week (often for several hours a day!) as happens in the cases of snakes "neutered" here for example), in that it can be handled gently and not pinned and necked.
No one, myself included advocates running into the bush and ripping out every snake's venom glands as a precaution against bites ... please lets have some sensibility here.
I agree to disagree with the proposition that there should never be venomoids (a widely touted view), but I do agree that some persons may want them for the wrong reasons. Thanks again GreggMM for summing up some of these.
However should one person's views against venomoids (GreggMM's) be forcibly imposed on others ... sounds like dictatorship to me.
I don't like guns but have no ingtention of stopping others from using them. I hate Chryslers too but am happy for others to drive them.
PS I have been dealing with hots of almost all taxa for over 30 years (and breeding many more than 30 years ago, which I assume predates many here) and took advantage of venomoid surgery less than 12 months ago for about 17 snakes, not for any self aggrandisment (as the venomoid state is openly disclosed), but for factors of public safety (also see above) and later for the obvious benefit of the snakes (yes, that's true). This will eventually be the main driver of demand for the operations, which I assume will literally swamp the "wrong reasons" being widely touted on this and other forums.
PPS For those interested in keeping "hots" there is a hot snakes special edition of REPTILES (USA) this coming month (September) and well worth a read.
All the best

I never post here for the simple reason that it seems like egos are quite large most of the time. It always seems like the people in these forums always try to flame someone who either is inexperienced, or just trying to ask a simple question. However, I know someone personally who performs the venomoid surgeries alongside a professional herp vet, under sterile conditions, and I have personally seen first hand the animals that this surgery has been done to. I always hear how the snake does not feel a thing and that there is no pain and all that good stuff that tries to justify the reasons for the surgery. I can honestly say that there is no reason in my opinion unless a fang infection threatens the life of the snake to do what is just an un-natural proceedure. I am sure I will get a really nice response from the person who started this thread about being ignorant and unknowlegable about this proceedure. That would be untrue. I have done my homework and have seen the end result of botched jobs. I am sure the snake feels pain, just it cant express it the way a cat or dog. Also, as said by Gregg, if you want a non-venomous snake, buy one dont make one. Educational programs are the usual excuse for justifying these types of surgeries, buy I see its more about profit than education. Its funny how you can make a $100.00 animal a $600.00 animal, and not change a thing about it except removing the business end. I am sure that all the venomoids sold on line are all going to science and education. Its money that goes into someones bank account. To me its complete disregard for the well being and the natural function of a species of animal. Say what you want, but people who purchase venomoids for their personal collection do so for the bragging rights of keeping what they obviously have no skill or knowlege of.
Chris S.

wow... that guy you work with must really suck at the surgery ... its sad to see incompitent people do the venomoid surgery... i feel sorry for every snake that crosses his path... you see its guys like him that give adenectomy and ductectomy bad names...and to those who disagree with the surgery.. im sure your snake enjoys having its head pinned to the floor everytime you want to clean or give him water... im also sure he enjoys being handled only by a hook must feel great... he also likes the tongs... great invention... lets squeeze the living crap out of the snake so he cant bite me ... i do keep hot snakes and i will not use hot snakes in a show because kids are unpredictable and you could make a mistake.. you are not so high and mighty that you wont trip or sneeze... then there goes the snake or you get bit .. just use some common sense... its considered child endangerment if you take dangerous animals into a show... not smart... hence the venomoid surgery... keeps everyone safe while the get a chance to experience these great and wonderful animals up close and not in a picture ... what were you thinking .. a picture.. yeah thats good material for a show...

If you had actually read my post, you would have seen that nowhere was it written that I work with him, I said I know him, also I did not say anything about the quality of his work. It happens to be flawless. He in fact is one of the best venomoiders out there. I dont condone what he does, and he knows it. In fact I have even refused to sell him any of my stuff in fear it would turn into a venomoid. Try reading the posts and comprehending what you read.
Chris S.

no need to .. its all made up anyways .. but nice try

It is quite obvious from your post that you have no idea of what you are talking about.I have never met a venomous keeper who "pins its head everytime they clean or give it water". The statements that you made regarding tongs and hooks just go to show your ingnorance. If that is your interpretation of snake handling equipment, you are so misinformed that it is sad.

I have a feeling that your only purpose of posting here is that you seem to enjoy posting and being controversial. Quite childish.

Sloane

you dont seem to realize that i handle venomous and venomoid..

im hear to post my point of view.. you are obviously here to do the same ... cant argue that ... the constant barage of retardation coming from you guys is insane..... so explain to me how oyu handle the hot snakes... being that i am so dumb...

so you all enjoy keeping things locked up in dirty cages and never cleaning them... wow thats great for the animal... you should all be in jail for animal cruelity...

you admitted he does crap jobs.. these are your words ..."I have done my homework and have seen the end result of botched jobs."

I in no way said that my friend was the one doing the botched jobs. I just said that I have seen the result of botched jobs. Try reading and a bit of comprehension. For someone who seems to know so much you sure do have a huge comprehension problem. Its either that or you just like stirring up an argument.

Again, you say its for the well being of the snake.... Another invalid reason to void a snake.... I am still waiting for the day that a pro-voider actually gives a good reason..... I have been keeping hots for well over ten years and have no reason to ever "pin" or "neck" a snake unless I have to administer meds oraly or to assist feed..... That is something you would have to do to a corn snake if it got sick.... See what I am getting at????

Like I said, people can see and learn plenty about a hot snake, looking at it through a secure cage or container.... There is no reason to take the snake out to educate people..... I guess that shoots your silly little reason out of the water....

I am interested to see if you have another "valid" reason to cut a snakes face open..... I would love to shoot that one down.... And one more thing..... You talk about shoving opinions down peoples necks.... Well my friend this is a venomous forum not a venomoid forum..... The people that look down on this cruel act do not say a word about it until one of you void hacks or supportes starts a thread on it.... Didnt you pro-voiders make your own little place in cyberspace to talk about this junk???? Why would you bring it to a venomous or hotkeepers forum???? You people obviously know it will start a flame war...... Pro-voiders have no place in the hot community as you are not hot keepers.....

so how can people who have never handled a venomous snake get the surgery on it .. i mean you say all venomoid keepers cant handle snakes right.. so how can the guys get the snakes in a position to work on them ...since they have no experience.. your so ignorant... i guarentee that anyone who has venomoid knows how to handle venomous... think about it .. .your theories make no sense.. its kinda funny really

LOL... You are a funny guy.... How do they get then in posision to operate on them???? They knock them out.... Any one can hook a baby gaboon into the container used to put them to sleep..... Actually anyone can handle a venomous snake but not everyone can do it safely and skillfully.... Hence the venomoid hack jobs..... Like I said there is no reason to take a hot snake out of the cage or container infront of young or inexperianced people.... You are actually putting more of a risk on the public if you take a void out of it cage than if I had fully intact hot snake in a secure locked container.... You reall are funny and the more you post the more everyone can see hoe uneducated you really are....

youre so secure in your argument.. it doesnt matter what i say your just gonna keep refering to hackjobs... hack jobs only occur because you and your flamming possy feel the need to hassel people that know and have good reason to fix snakes... you feel like god cause you keep dangerous snakes... you may say its not right too keep venomoids.. you know what its also not right to keep wild animals.. wow... ever think of that...no because you are too busy thinking your god... i know how they get the snakes into the surgery .. i have seen over 50 of them done and infact i watched two more this afternoon two young gabby's that will be used in educational programs in a year.. they will be huge and fiesty and comfortable not on a hook ...

I have to honestly say that if anyone here is ignorant it is you. You do not have to pin a snake or use tongs. There are many ways to transfer, transport and restrain a snake without the above mentioned tools. I do own all of the above, and have never had to pin or tong a snake ever. Try restaining tubes. I have used them to assist feed, medicate, and even just give the snake a full body check up. They dont fight, and they dont struggle. I could have an accident and get bit, but if I do its because I became lazy or complacent. I have 50 venomous snakes in my collection and about 10 of them I could practically free handle, but just because I could does not mean I should or will. Venomoiding a snake is not the answer. If you cant keep a venomous animal because of your living situation or children, then you should not keep them. Being that you seem to be an unreasonable person, and think that the only real way to safeguard people is to fix the snake, it would almost seem as important to have someone fix you so as that you could not breed anymore of your type. It seems people like you think its ok to do these things to animals. As Gregg said, you can educate people about dangerous and deadly animals without having to handle the animal itself. As I stated before, its just a ploy to get people who want these animals and dont know how to keep them safely to buy them for more than they are worth. I would pay a hell of alot more money for a great looking specimen with all its parts in tact then a venomoid. It takes a special kind of person with a deepend respect for these type of reptiles who should keep them. You should not. Also Mr. Quick On The Buttons, if you have not read my post above, I suggest reading it. It might clear up a few things in your reply post.
Chris S.

Ok you saw two snake hacked up today???? Good for you..... I am not god and never claimed to be..... The way I see it is that you the pro-voider and the hackers are playing god by cutting open a snakes head to strip away what makes them what they are..... A venomous animal.... Ummmm All of my snakes are CBB so they were never in the wild..... I know they are not domestocated but atleast they are maintained correctly and in one piece..... You know, the way they are supposed to be..... It will be a very unfortunate day when one of you pro-voiders gets bitten by a supposed void and is seriously injured due to a botched hack job..... If you read reptiles mag you can read a first hand account..... Or is that BS too???? I never want to see someone get bitten no matter how ignorant or pro void they are but I can promise it will happen..... Sorry for feeling pitty for the poor snakes that make their way into your collection and onto a chopping block..... I must be crazy..... And I am so sure your snakes are used for education.... Atleast tell the truth..... You want to show off to all you little buddies so you can be "THE MAN"..... There are a ton of voids out there and I bet not even 2% are used for educational reasons.... For some reason I feel you have never seen a void operation and are 100% unqualified to keep a venomous snake safely and competently so you bought a hacked up snake instead.... I bet you are what in your early 20s???? Why dont you post a pic of this 8 year old void cobra????

And venomous snakes in an educational program will be more comfortable and less stressed out when they are left in the cage and not manhandled.... Man, when are you going to understand that hack jobs are not the way to go..... I guess never or whenever you get tagged by a void that may still be hot..... I guess everyone stll needs to play with toys.... My toys are dirtbikes and quads not hacked up snakes....

you forgot to mention your snakes.. they are considered toys aswell being as you have them for no reason and keep them in poor conditions.. but hey good luck with trying to make sense.. maybe someday you will

Some of us keep both hots and venomoids of course. Just wanted to point that out. Here is the place to discuss venomoids without the flames.......http://groups.yahoo.com/group/venomoid/

I do a great deal of hands-on veterinary work with venomous snakes, and pinning is not a technique I find necessary even for oral exam or medication. A snake may be funnelled into a tube very easily with the use of a properly designed funnel or a Pro Bagger. This technique is minimally stressful to the animal and does not put either the snake or the handler at the same risk of injury as a pin does.

On the rare occasions I do pin, I use a very large pinning surface on a soft foam pad designed to support the entire body. My two pinning tools are a light plastic breadboard with foam padding and a specially designed tool that is made from a PVC pipe cut in half lengthwise and padded around with foam. But again they rarely see use. The foam padding is used as a brief and gentle slow-down on the snake's body so that it can be quickly head tubed. This method of pinning is extremely safe and non injurious to the animal, as it basically "hugs" the snake between two soft padded surfaces for just long enough to introduce a capped tube segment over the head.

The old fashioned practice of using a hard, narrow object to pin a snake's head in order to manually grasp its neck carries a high risk of injury to both snake and handler. I consider it an inappropriate and outdated method. The existence of a crude and outdated technique does not justify equally crude devenomizing practices. The obvious answer is to keep up to date on humane modern handling practices.

Behavioral management and habituation for venomous and dangerous reptiles in the zoo environment is another technique that is currently being taught in modern zoological schools. Any competent professional keeper can handle venomous snakes safely, appropriately and gently using the new techniques and skills.

The old "macho" ethic of snake vs. handler is inappropriate in the professional zoo or veterinary environment. The goal here is not to pit the snake's speed and strength against that of the handler, but to manage the patient in a way that is minimally stressful and supportive of its health. Macho hard pinning and fast grabbing is unnecessary and counterproductive. It may entertain the crowds, but a presentation involving behavioral management techniques can be equally entertaining and even more educational in a healthy and positive way.

In your published articles, you describe the venomoid procedure that you perform as follows.

1. No anesthesia or pain medication whatsoever. The refrigerator is used to make the snakes too cold to move.

2. Non sterile wooden surface for the "operation". Other equipment depicted included rubber bands and nails.

3. Completely unlicensed and illegal method of operation, eg, not performed by a veterinarian.

Would you describe this as the "right way"?

Like many other competent handlers, I do not have any difficulty handling healthy venomous snakes in a gentle and appropriate manner for educational shows and classes. Snakes may be viewed very closely by the public through glass, in a tube, or while being gently tailed by a competent handler.

I have had excellent success habituating venomous snakes to gentle handling for show use. Effective behavioral management techniques for dangerous reptiles are now taught professionally by the AZA and other zoo schools. It would be advisable to learn these professional skills rather than engaging in illegal and inhumane practices.

like i said it is insane to take dangerous animals into a situation involving kids.. you should be in jail

to such idiotic posts! Like Tanith, I, too am an educator and herpetologist who presents in front of thousands of people each year for the past 15 years. Having several venomous as part of our program is integral to our mission and guess what?...we have NEVER had a single incident; not even close. Why? Because there are professionals who do this and have the proper training and experience. To show a beautiful (and live but not venomoid) 6' eastern diamondback rattlesnake and then show slides of what happens at a typical rattlesnake roundup will do more for positive change than anything. Why? Because people can relate when they see a real live venomous snake. We always use extreme caution when utilizing venomous snakes for public programs (and our exhibits). Your comment was pathetically shallow and my response by stooping to such low levels puts me at that same level...shame on me!

Rob Carmichael, Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center

there will be a incident soon enough your not god .. you will make a mistake and i hope it involves the handler and not the audience

"like i said it is insane to take dangerous animals into a situation involving kids.. you should be in jail"

So then when I go to the Washington Zoo and enjoy all those Venomous snakes the public is in danger? How dare the Luray Reptile zoo with their vast collection of hots put me and my kids in danger when we go to enjoy them in their exhibits. Darn guys in the local herp club keep bringing Copperheads and Cottonmouths to educate the public, it's a shame they keep them in the enclosures and never take them out during the presentation. We can't really get educated unless they're pulled out and handled. Quick, someone get us a Venomoid. You make it sound like most of the Venomous keepers on this board have to go have to pull their animals out to educate the public when in reality most educational shows that I've been around was envolved with the animal never leaving it's setup.
I love all snakes. I keep Kingssnakes, ratsnakes and corns. I've never owned a venomous, and don't really have a desire to. There is too many non-venomous species I enjoy that will keep me happy for the rest of my life.
You keep Venomoids that's your business, but don't get all upset because most of the folks on this message board have strong feelings against the procedure, and it's not just the venomous keepers that feel this way. Ask what most folks thing on the Ratsnake, Kingsnake or cornsnake forums and you'd have most feel the same as they do here.

Steve

you have no right to comment unless you have had experience with venomous

You really should take time to get the facts of a situation. I do snake safety training courses for police officers, zookeepers and veterinarians. The classes are open to adult professionals, not to children. The trainees go hands-on with assorted Nerodia, Coluber and other nonvenomous act-alikes while they observe the venomous snakes being handled.

On the rare occasions I have done educational presentations for kids, they get to view the venomous snakes only through exhibit glass in the same way as everyone else who visits the zoo. I believe that this is the most appropriate way to educate the general public about venomous snakes. Freehandling and daredevil stunts are unnecessary and counterproductive, and they send a negative message about what is acceptable behavior around venomous snakes. The message I want to make clear to children is that venomous snakes should not be touched or handled, only viewed from a safe distance.

Making snakes venomoid and handling them casually or carelessly during "educational" presentations sets a very poor example for children and encourages them to imitate what they see. Regardless of what is said, they come away with the idea that it is okay to touch and handle venomous snakes because they see the presenter doing it. That's extremely irresponsible in my opinion, much more so than allowing children to view fully venomous snakes in a safe and professional zoological park setting.

As a nature lover, I am strongly opposed to "modifying" a living thing just so it suits my needs. I do not keep snakes (venomous or otherwise) so my opinion may not have much merit here, but it seems only logical that if you want a non-venomous snake, go and buy one. i cannot for the life of me understand the rationale of buying a venomous creature and then mutilating it so it no longer poses a danger. Isn't that kind of like purchasing a Ferrari and replacing the engine with a 4 cylinder (bad analogy I know, but you get the point)....

This is the venomous reptiles forum. It is for those who love, keep and/or admire these creatures for all they are, and is not for those who wish to surgically change them for no valid reason. Frankly, the subject of "venomoids" shouldn't even be discussed here. It has no place in any forum where people discuss how to best care for their animals. People here love hots. Why discuss how to change them?

youre right no merrit here whatsoever...

LOL...I just read all your posts, and ya know what? I truly believe my opinion has more merit here than yours, because I don't believe in altering ANY animal for personal gain. I was comparing myself to true hot keepers when I made that comment, not wannabes.

Frankly, having read all your posts as well as the replies, I am convinced, besides the fact that you probably failed English several times in your school years, that you have a few non-venomous snakes and would love to get a venomoid to add to the collection and you were somehow hoping to convince the true hot keepers in here that it is ethical so you have some sense of belonging. I don't believe you have 18 years experience, I don't believe you have witnessed numerous surgeries, and I sure don't believe that you perform 400 educational shows a year. If you do, then kindly provide your name and the show's name so I can keep my kids home from school that day.

thats really smart ... yeah me put my real name on here... so you flamming homicidal freaks know who the real me is .. good luck.. thats not happening.. all of you are insane and you decent judgement... its just to bad that none of you are capable of understanding what is really goin on here

A couple of days ago, you said you had a monocled cobra and were looking at getting it "de-venomized" as well as asking if anyone knew someone that could do the surgery. Now you say you have a void monocled cobra and you've been watching your neighbor do these surgeries for years. Wow, have you been in a time warp?? Alot of time has passed by in your life since you posted that 3 days ago.

You also mentioned that hot keepers cages are dirty because they don't want to go near them. Could it be that you got your first hot and it turned out to be alittle more than you could handle? Is his cage getting dirty because you don't know how to get him out of there to clean it? Is that why venomoids are attractive to you all of a sudden? Could you be one of those individuals who decided to get a hot before doing the research, and now don't know what to do?

Not voids.....

so that makes it ok to attack them then?

Who attacked you???? You asked a question and got some answers you did not want to hear.... Thats that....