Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

I posted a while back asking if cankerworms were safe to eat, because I had found a cluster of eggs, hatched them in a container and thought they were cankerworms, because of their inchworm-like locomotion. Now that the caterpillars are bigger, though, I don't think that's what they are; cankerworms only have 1-2 pairs of prolegs, while these have 3 (like most other caterpillars). They also no longer move "inchworm-fashion" like when they were hatchlings. Their coloration is also changing quite a bit.

I'm attaching a pic, hopefully someone here will know what these things are? There are two caterpillars in the pic; we ended up finding a larger caterpillar somewhere in our yard and think maybe this is the same as what we hatched; so the smaller one on the bottom is one of the hatched larvae while the big one is the one we found. The eggs were light brown and laid in a cluster, all in perfect rows on an iris leaf. I don't know how many there were, maybe 100 or so. We live in Vermont, so maybe Lele, our resident bug expert, will know what they are. They've been feeding on just about every plant we've given them -- dandelion greens, curly lettuce, clovers, etc., so they're obviously not dependent on a specific host plant.

Thanks!

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Julie Williams
www.baskingwonders.com

Hi Julie,

They look like (fall) armyworms - ick! You may recall last fall (or maybe 2002) when Maine had a HUGE problem with them? They "troop" thru fields and feed at an unbelievable rate! Definitely feed them to your chams and any that you don't, well, I am not one for smushing lep larvae but here I would (and have) make an exception. They feed on numerous ornamental plants. The army are major crop pests. The cutworms are the ones that cut your plants at soil line. They spend the day in the soil and at night come out and will decapitate seedlings and you will see only the remains of a moonlight massacre!

If they drop and curl into a "c" when disturbed they are cutworms. They are just as destructive as armyworms
here are some pix.

this shows both army and cut:
http://entomology.unl.edu/turfent/documnts/cutworms.htm

http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/field/fall_armyworm.htm#host
http://www.knowledgebank.irri.org/riceDoctor_MX/image31.jpg

so other than the usual pesticide precaution it would be just fine for them to be dinner for your chams

lele

Link

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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (both MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog (for summer)
0.5 Mad. Hissers (for summer - all girls, no little ones, whew!)

Hi Lele,

Thanks! It looks like they're cutworms, because the armyworm's egg mass doesn't look like what I found. I did some research on Google on the cutworm and everything fits. I'm still not sure whether the newly hatched larvae are the same as the bigger worm, because they don't curl into a ball when disturbed and the patterning isn't the same. But the bigger one does.

I was actually going to try and reproduce these in captivity, because they sound like a wonderful feeder for chams. They're soft-bodied, smooth-skinned, they reach a good size (I read they get to be nearly 2" long), but they don't need expensive chows to thrive. Do you think I should reconsider, given their pest status?

Thanks again!

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Julie Williams
www.baskingwonders.com

Julie,

The eggs can look different depending on spp and location, but cutworms or armyworms they are highly destructive.

I do not think it is worth it. Depending on species both cut and armyworms can winter over in their larval or pupal stage. Do you have the setup to maintain HUGE colonies of these? I do it with harmless, wonderful wild silks and this time every year I am to the point of "I can't wait until they all spin!" LOL! and this is a labor of love!!

But seriously, I wouldn't bother. The risk of adding to the invasion will NOT be appreciated by your community What if your cham tires of them? Any gravid female moth that gets out (and believe me, it WILL happen - sort of like crix, no matter how careful you are...) has the potential to contribute 100's of her progeny to your garden and surrounding areas.

Interestingly, armyworms do not overwinter in much of New England. The moth flies to warmer climate, lays her eggs which then migrate north - pretty scary, huh?

Check out these sites for info from U Maine.

http://pmo.umext.maine.edu/factsht/armyworms.htm
http://pmo.umext.maine.edu/factsht/cutwm.htm
http://pmo.umext.maine.edu/swetcorn/fall.htm

So maybe just collect some for the chams in the fall as a treat

lele

p.s. One note about caterpillar anatomy. The prolegs are actually the ones in the center, (typically 4, but does vary as with the geometrids "inch worms",) and the anal prolegs/claspers. Their true legs (the ones they keep thru metamorphosis) are the 3 pair in the front.
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (both MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog (for summer)
0.5 Mad. Hissers (for summer - all girls, no little ones, whew!)

Hi Lele,

Wow, thanks for all that great info. So I guess breeding these for commercial availability is out of the question. Too bad, they certainly would have been cheaper than butterworms and silkworms. LOL

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Julie Williams
www.baskingwonders.com

Julie,

commercial availability? LOL! It would be a great way to get rid of them but more would have to be produced in order to do so
I would not be surprised if the local ag dept (VT, ME, NH, etc) would not allow this and rightfully so.

I grow a lot of native plants and I had just planted two solomon seal that I had nurtured from seed from my mother plant. I put them in a protected spot right out front. Much to my dismay I found them severely chewed the very next day! I went out at night with my flashlight and sure enough - CUTWORMS!!!!! UGH! I hate them. They did enough damage to kill one of the two

>>Hi Lele,
>>
>>Wow, thanks for all that great info. So I guess breeding these for commercial availability is out of the question. Too bad, they certainly would have been cheaper than butterworms and silkworms. LOL
>>
>>-----
>>Julie Williams
>>www.baskingwonders.com
>>
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (both MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog (for summer)
0.5 Mad. Hissers (for summer - all girls, no little ones, whew!)

Are you going to the herp show in NH? maybe we can meet this time. Not quite sure why I'll be going since they depress me and at the same time they make me want to get another lizard! I'll try to stick to just supplies! I am going into my final semester for my B.S. and don't need another new critter to fuss over! LOL!
herp show

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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (both MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog (for summer)
0.5 Mad. Hissers (for summer - all girls, no little ones, whew!)

I just checked on the Portland Maine show which is Aug. 22nd. I have not been yet and understand it is rather small. It's a much further drive for you, but let me know if you are going. I will probably go to check it out.
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (both MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog (for summer)
0.5 Mad. Hissers (for summer - all girls, no little ones, whew!)

We're having a big garage sale on that day, so can't make it. Is the Maine one bigger than the NH one? Might be an interesting consideration for next year...
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Julie Williams
www.baskingwonders.com

Hi Lele,

Yes, we will be at the Manchester show as vendors. It would be very cool if we could meet there!

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Julie Williams
www.baskingwonders.com

LOL Yeah, in light of what we just discussed, it does sound pretty ridiculous to include them as a commercial feeder. That's why I asked.

I guess I'm frustrated by the lack of commercial availability of feeders. It seems like there's only about half of them that are halfway decent as staple items. Feeders such as mealworms, superworms and waxworms seem more like treats than actual food.

We also have some field crickets that we're trying to breed; I noticed that UK suppliers offer both field crickets and house crickets as feeders, again with the idea of providing as much variety as possible. Wonder why the US doesn't do the same? Too much hassle, I guess.

Anyway, thanks for answering all my questions with such detail. It was really helpful!

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Julie Williams
www.baskingwonders.com

I wonder what the nutritional value of the cut/armyworms have. They are so gross it must be little! LOL!!!

I belive that the Maine show is much smaller than the NH show. Here's a link with a vendor list. We will have to touch base before the NH show so we can meet!

lele
Maine show

-----
0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (both MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta
1.0 African Clawed Frog (for summer)
0.5 Mad. Hissers (for summer - all girls, no little ones, whew!)