Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tiger ratsnake? Does anyone have the answer?

i'm not sure myself, i'd say either tiget rat or vietnamese/tawian beauty.
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The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -Unknown

imnot an expert on colubrids but here are some of my guesses.
mangrove snake
mussurana
indigo snake
beauty snake

just my thoughts
nick

>>Tiger ratsnake? Does anyone have the answer?

I would think the Yellowtail Cribo Drymarchon corais corais would be a contender. They reach lengths well in excess of 10 feet, and I have heard of a couple in the 12 to 13 foot range. I have one female that is very close to 9 feet now and weighs about 12 lbs.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I would agree with that but I would throw in the pot False water cobras as a runner up. Though rearfanged it has been listed in colubrids. Reports put max size at eleven feet but massive bulk wins over the slender blue beauty..

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well, colubrids could include King Cobras, which can attain [supposedly] lengths up to 18 feet. However, my contender would by the Dharman Ratsnake [sometimes called Dhama or Indian Ratsnake], Ptyas mucosa, Ptyas carinatus [carinata?]. Most Ptyas species are mistaken for King Cobras and attain lenghts well-exceeding 12 feet. A good runner-up would be the large Asian Ratsnakes such as Taiwan and Vietnamese Beauty Snakes. Supposedly they can reach lengths over 10 feet. I have a pair that are probably pushing 6 - 7 feet in length [Taiwans], however the original breeder said the parents were several years old and had only thus far attained lengths around 7 feet or so. I've seen some photos of big Taiwans, but little to truly convince me that they reach such large sizes as adults. My two cents worth.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

>>Well, colubrids could include King Cobras, which can attain (supposedly) lengths up to 18 feet.

Hey Matt,

I don't follow...under current taxonomy there are no proteroglyphs under Colubridae, they are all under Elapidae. Only apistoglyphs (Boigids) and aglyphs are under Colubridae. There is a tie under the superfamily Xenophidia (Colubroidea), but that would make Elapids one of the Colubroids not one of the Colubrids, right? Or am I screwed up here? (That wouldn't be a huge surprise, school was a long time ago)
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I thought it was the indigo?

>>I thought it was the indigo?

Yellowtail Cribos are the largest member of the group that makes up the Indigo Snakes and the Cribos. They all belong to the genus Drymarchon. The Eastern Indigo is Drymarchon (sp. nov.) couperi. It was formerly classified as Drymarchon corais couperi, as a subspecies of the Yellowtail Cribo Drymarchon corais corais . The Texas Indigo is Drymarchon (sp. nov.) melanurus erebennus. It was formerly classified as D.c.erebennus, also a subspecies of D.c.corais.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

First...You're right on old herper. King (or any cobra) are Elapids....which disqualifies them for this discussion.

Second...When we say largest do we just mean length? Or...do we have a situation like with the Reticulated python vs the anaconda (bulk vs length)?

I'm still backing the yellow tail as those others don't match it's bulk.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Oldherper,

You are too right about the Cobras not being counted in this discussion about largest colubrid snake. I was thinking back to simple generic taxonomy of everything is either a boid or a colubrid, not neccessarily splitting the finer hairs of how everything is organized. So yes, I'll have to revise my pick and still put my vote in for the Dharman Ratsnakes, which I notice Dr. Bryan has voted for as well. Man, I really wish someone would import some of those - however I suspect they'd be out of my price range, me being a poor zoo-keeper and all.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Oldherper,

Turns out there was some method to my madness. I did a quick check and it turns out what I was thinking about was the Superfamily level of organization where Colubridae (Family) and Elapidae (Family) are included under Colubroidea (Superfamily). But yes, the discussion was Colubridae not Elapidae.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

>>Oldherper,
>>
>>Turns out there was some method to my madness. I did a quick check and it turns out what I was thinking about was the Superfamily level of organization where Colubridae (Family) and Elapidae (Family) are included under Colubroidea (Superfamily). But yes, the discussion was Colubridae not Elapidae.
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>>Matt Campbell
>>Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
>>Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois
>>
>>Assistant Curator
>>Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, Illinois

Yeah, I kinda figured that's what you were thinking about. That's why I said:

"under current taxonomy there are no proteroglyphs under Colubridae, they are all under Elapidae. Only apistoglyphs (Boigids) and aglyphs are under Colubridae. There is a tie under the superfamily Xenophidia (Colubroidea), but that would make Elapids one of the Colubroids not one of the Colubrids, right?"

If you check out the research being conducted by Bryan Frye, it sort of bears out the validity of the current taxonomy. It indicates that there was one common ancestor from which both groups evolved. Some of the 3ftx (Colubritoxins) that he is isolating from colubrids are very similar in composition, relative strength and action to those from Elapids (specifically Cobratoxins), and would indicate that the two groups are not as far separated as you might think. It is very interesting work and it seems to me that it will provide a lot of insight to the evolutionary process of these groups and where that process might be taking them. Check it out. In his post below (he's BGF on here), there is a link to his website.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Oldherper,

You raise a very interesting subject with the 3ftx idea. I have read up on Dr. Bryan's work and have his site bookmarked. It'll be interesting to see what his further studies will reveal. It's a pity he lives in Australia - I'd love to get him to give a talk to our herp society here in Chicago, unfortunately it's a bit out of our budget to fly someone that far over. Oh well, we'll just have to content ourselves with reading up on his work online. By the way, I call him Dr. Bryan because at the zoo we have so many vets, PhD.s, etc, that they're all refered to as "Dr. [insert first name]". It gets to be habit after a while.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

>>Oldherper,
>>
>>You raise a very interesting subject with the 3ftx idea. I have read up on Dr. Bryan's work and have his site bookmarked. It'll be interesting to see what his further studies will reveal. It's a pity he lives in Australia - I'd love to get him to give a talk to our herp society here in Chicago, unfortunately it's a bit out of our budget to fly someone that far over. Oh well, we'll just have to content ourselves with reading up on his work online. By the way, I call him Dr. Bryan because at the zoo we have so many vets, PhD.s, etc, that they're all refered to as "Dr. [insert first name]". It gets to be habit after a while.
>>-----
>>Matt Campbell
>>Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
>>Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois
>>
>>Assistant Curator
>>Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, Illinois

Matt
You raise yet another interesting point. People with Doctorate degrees in the animal related fields, such as Veterinarians, Research Biologists, etc., seem less inclined to stand on ceremony and use the Dr. in front of thier names so much, even though they've certainly earned the right to use it. The exceptions seem to be University Professors, which is understandable. Dr. Robert Mount (Auburn University Biology Professor) was Dr. Mount to his students. Outside the University he was Bob Mount most of the time. Many you wouldn't even realize hold a Doctorate just to meet them because they don't introduce themselves that way. Dr. Frye tends to refer to himself simply as Bryan. I use whatever they introduce themselves with because I figure that's how they prefer to be addressed. The Veterinarian that provides care for my facility is also one of the Herp Vets for ZooAtlanta (Chelonian specialist). He introduces himself as "Sam" and prefers to be addressed that way. I knew another fellow for 4 years and saw him almost daily before I knew he held a PhD. We had just never exchanged "pedigrees", because it didn't seem important.

Even though a Doctor is still just a person, like every one else, there is a psychological effect on the relationship you have with other people if they have to refer to you as Dr.(insert family name here). In situations where you want a more relaxed and less formal interaction, then you would use Dr. (first name) or just the first name. If Bryan introduced himself as Dr. Frye, then I would certainly address him that way. I don't think there is any disrespect to his position in using the title he introduces himself with, nor in your way by using Dr. Bryan. The respect comes from his work, not so much his title.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I'm sitting in a hotel in Daytona, Fl. Things are getting interesting here...I came down for the IHS and to check out the Expo, and it looks like I'm going to get some "natural entertainment" of another flavor. This Hurricane Charley is now predicted to pass directly over Daytona Beach. It was upgraded to a Category 4 just a little while ago with 145 mph winds and still building. It went from Category 2 to Category 4 in 90 minutes. Might get interesting....I'm still going to try to make this evening's presentations if they aren't cancelled.

Here's a question...the last storm that went through just before this one was called "Bonnie", so the next one had to have a male name beginning with "C". Why "Charley"? Doesn't it seem logical that it should have been "Clyde"?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hahahaha!!! That was pretty funny! Clyde would've made more sense, but I think I heard or read somewhere that they're chosen on the basis of some randomly-generated list. Hope everything holds together down there. I've got family in Sarasota as well as Georgia (around Atlanta). Question - you said "my facility," I think? What sort of facility do you run? Just curious. I read a lot of your posts and it never really occured to me to ask what you keep, what you're into these days, etc. My signature line says pretty much what I do. I think I've seen you post on the Indigo forum so you'll be familiar with Rob Carmichael - he's my part-time boss at the Wildlife Discovery Center. Of course my day job is full-time animal keeper at Lincoln Park Zoo. I will have been there two years this November, however I've been keeping herps and have been into them in some form or other for over 25 years. I don't keep a whole lot at home (but my fiance would say different) - just 16 snakes, 10 lizards, 4 chelonians.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

>>Hahahaha!!! That was pretty funny! Clyde would've made more sense, but I think I heard or read somewhere that they're chosen on the basis of some randomly-generated list. Hope everything holds together down there. I've got family in Sarasota as well as Georgia (around Atlanta). Question - you said "my facility," I think? What sort of facility do you run? Just curious. I read a lot of your posts and it never really occured to me to ask what you keep, what you're into these days, etc. My signature line says pretty much what I do. I think I've seen you post on the Indigo forum so you'll be familiar with Rob Carmichael - he's my part-time boss at the Wildlife Discovery Center. Of course my day job is full-time animal keeper at Lincoln Park Zoo. I will have been there two years this November, however I've been keeping herps and have been into them in some form or other for over 25 years. I don't keep a whole lot at home (but my fiance would say different) - just 16 snakes, 10 lizards, 4 chelonians.
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>>Matt Campbell
>>Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
>>Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois
>>
>>Assistant Curator
>>Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
>>Lake Forest, Illinois

Matt,
Sorry it took me so long to answer. I've been sort of busy for the past couple of days.

My facility is a breeding facility. I have several breeding projects going on. They are (at present):

Mexican Redtail Cribo (Drymarchon melanurus rubidus (nov.sp.))
Texas Indigo Snake (D.m.erebennus(nov.sp.))
Blacktail Cribo (D.m.melanurus(nov.sp.))
Yellowtail Cribo (D.corais corais(nov.sp.))
(All listed Drymarchon are listed by new taxonomy (Wuster). The old taxonomy would be D.corais ssp.)

Black Pine Snake (Pituophis melanoleucus lodingi)
Green Tree Python (Morelia viridis)

I also breed a bunch of assorted Milksnakes and Gray Banded Kingsnakes to help fund the others. I took this year off from some of them because they are such a pain. I didn't want to be spending time trying to start a bunch af baby Gray Bands while I have baby Indigos to deal with. I may drop those altogether and sell the animals off.

New projects for which I have acquired animals:

Louisiana Pine Snakes (P.m.ruthveni)
Mexican Pine Snakes (P.deppei jani)
Unicolor Cribo (D.m.unicolor(nov.sp.))

I am also seriously considering acquiring a trio of adult Aldabra Tortoises for a Chelonian project. That one requires some pretty serious funding, though. It may take a couple of years to accomplish.

Yep, I know who Rob is. He should be a great guy to work with.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

.
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Check Out My Albums

1.0 Ball Python "Aragorn"
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa "Gimli"
1.0 Saharan Sand Boa "Frodo"
0.1 Rough-Scale Sand Boa "Arwen"
0.1 California Kingsnake "Gentoo"
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Indigo"
1.0 Snow Corn snake "Chile"

0.0.1 Crested Gecko
0.0.1 Irian Jaya BlueTongued Skink

0.1 Australian Cattle Dog/Pointer
"Kira"

Here's a couple pics of ours. They are truly massive animals, getting up to four meters. They also have increbily strong jaws that could really leave some scar tissue. Too cool I'd like to see them established in the US pet trade. If enough people start requesting them, supply and demand will ensure that they are imported.

http://www.venomdoc.com/ptyas_carinatus/CARHI11.jpg
http://www.venomdoc.com/ptyas_carinatus/CARHI7.jpg
http://www.venomdoc.com/ptyas_carinatus/CARHI9.jpg
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

>>Here's a couple pics of ours. They are truly massive animals, getting up to four meters. They also have increbily strong jaws that could really leave some scar tissue. Too cool I'd like to see them established in the US pet trade. If enough people start requesting them, supply and demand will ensure that they are imported.
>>
>>http://www.venomdoc.com/ptyas_carinatus/CARHI11.jpg
>>http://www.venomdoc.com/ptyas_carinatus/CARHI7.jpg
>>http://www.venomdoc.com/ptyas_carinatus/CARHI9.jpg
>>-----
>>Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Australian Venom Research Unit,
>>University of Melbourne
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
>>Museum Victoria
>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>http://www.venomdoc.com

Hi Bryan!

4 meters? Holy smokes! That's, like 13 feet or so. I didn't realize they got that long. I figured about 10 feet, like most of the Asian Rat Snakes. They tend to stay somewhat on the slim side though, don't they? I think D.c.corais can get to similar lengths, but may be a little heavier? You don't really see a whole lot of P.carinata in the U.S.

By the way, how did your wife's survey come out? Did she get the data she was looking for?

Gerald

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>Hi Bryan!
>>

Hi mate

>>4 meters? Holy smokes! That's, like 13 feet or so. I didn't realize they got that long. I figured about 10 feet, like most of the Asian Rat Snakes. They tend to stay somewhat on the slim side though, don't they? I think D.c.corais can get to similar lengths, but may be a little heavier?

Not sure, haven't seen any D. c. corais of appreciable size so can't judge how much they bulk out. The P. carinatus are more robust than the other Ptyas though. They are a big bloody animal indeed.

>You don't really see a whole lot of P.carinata in the U.S.
>>

I'd like to seem them established in captivity. They are one of the most magnificant animals I've ever seen.

>>By the way, how did your wife's survey come out? Did she get the data she was looking for?
>>

Indeed she did She's busy analysing her data right now and its coming up very very cool. The most widely useable piece is that it shows that herpers are just 'people', that all herpers are not bikers with lots of tatoos that the public typically paints them as (not that there is anything wrong with motorcycles and ink). This will be very useful in fighing assinine legislation. City council members proposing such travesties can be educated about that fact that herpers are just generic voters who can vote their butts out of office!!!

Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

>>Not sure, haven't seen any D. c. corais of appreciable size so can't judge how much they bulk out. The P. carinatus are more robust than the other Ptyas though. They are a big bloody animal indeed.

Well, I have one female (D.c.corais that is near 9 feet long now and weighs just under 12 lbs. So if you tried to extrapolate that to one in the 12 to 13 foot range I would imagine that it would come out to 14 to 16 lbs. They tend to stay slim until they get to about 6 feet or so, then they start to really gain girth (they will become obese if you don't curb the food). I don't know how that compates to P. carinata, I've never seen a live adult specimen (only photos).

>>Indeed she did She's busy analysing her data right now and its coming up very very cool. The most widely useable piece is that it shows that herpers are just 'people', herpers are not bikers with lots of tatoos that all the public typically paints them as (not that there is anything wrong with motorcycles and ink). This will be very useful in fighing assinine legislation. City council members proposing such travesties can be educated about that fact that herpers are just generic voters who can vote their butts out of office!!!

That's great! We need all the help we can get. I'm glad I was able to be very small part of it by participating in the survey.

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson