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Snakes are solitary animals they only come together for one reason BREEDING! If you are not breeding do not house them together. If they are babies it will be OK to house them together for a VERY SHORT amount of time until you get money to buy a new cage.

You haven't seen a lot of snakes, have you? did you just get done reading that 1985 edition of some python husbandry book and are now full of quotes? (sorry if i sound rough, i am from a rough forum, thats where i normally post).

so if they are babies i can house them together?
Kind of like this (horrible pic i know, but it is what it is)

so why should i keep my snakes solitary? maybe i should go back to not doing that. actually i do have one pair of jungles together. so why is it bad? do you have any ideas?

maybe it would be bad to house my carpets and other snakes in the same room with predators that would have no problem eating them? you know that crap within their territory. would that be bad?

like what if this guy was within olfactory distance from my snakes?

lets get some interesting discussion going on.

andrew

To answer your question as I kinda started ya in this issue. When it comes to crosses I'm usually not against it (If you really love carpets and have done your homework, you really can't be a true 'purist') EXCEPT when it doesn't make any sense. When you breed, you need to have a goal or a 'look' to strive for. Jungles have a set look of bright yellow and black. Irian Jayas have the light tan/gold with either bright yellow to rust red patches. From the little I know about genetics, brown is a more dominate trait in carpets than either the yellow (in JCP) or the light tan(in IJP). So hypathetically, you cross a georgious solid black and yellow JCP to a nice IJ with rust/orange patches. The best of both worlds your thinking right?...

OK, so lets consider our average little hatchling. JCP background color-bright yellow IJ background color-tan = average to dull brown with a hint of yellow...eww! you weren't expecting that now were you?

But there's got to be a redeeming quality in the band color right? JCP bands- solid black IJ- Thin black bands with nice rust orange= Average to thick black areas fading to average brown to rust brown...well could have been worse I guess.

Now you are right that you might get one nice little guys out of a clutch of 20 hatchlings. But what the heck are you going to do with the other 19? What have you really accomplished other than making more mutts with poor to average color that you don't get crap for in the first place?...All I really ask people to do is to think about what they're breeding and not just throw two snakes together because they can IF they are dead set about crossing them! And yes, there are ways to get better odds for better looking animals, but do the dang homework first! Make sure its worth the effort, and believe you me 1 out of 20 ain't worth it for anyone involved! Does that make sense?...

Darci
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Takes all kinds to make a World...

on that issue. you don't make senseless crosses. i mean the carpondros are very cool, beautiful crosses, others just don't look that good.

that wasn't the point. the point that is that the other person is trying to tell me how to prescribe husbandry to my snakes. he or she does not have a clue in the first place.

somebody is going to rock the python world and many won't like it. i hope its me, but we will see.

andrew

>>that wasn't the point. the point that is that the other person is trying to tell me how to prescribe husbandry to my snakes. he or she does not have a clue in the first place.

Firstly, consider the forum in which you asked your questions. We deal with a lot of beginers and newbie herp keepers here. We usually assume the worst and try to give advice accordingly. Don't take it personal. How are we to know what you do and do not know if you don't tell us. Secondly its only advice so don't get your panites in a bunch! If you don't like it, ignore it!

>>somebody is going to rock the python world and many won't like it. i hope its me, but we will see.

Well, I wish you the best on that. Still delusions of gradure don't give you the right to come here and try to pick a fight over a silly issue. get over yourself man!

Darci
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Takes all kinds to make a World...

its not about me. its about the pythons, monitors, vipers, bearded dragons and whatever other animals i keep.

these forums are not about people, they are about captive husbandry.

also words don't mean anything. so you don't have to believe a thing i say. i just think a tad outside the box, you are running with the herd. but we are all into carpets and here to have fun.

so cheers, andrew

People tend to follow patterns in reptile keeping methods due to the fact that certain methods and practices have been proven to be successful. This does not make the people that follow these practices "followers". They are merely following protocol that has been proven to be safe, effective, and successful. To deviate from the accepted norms merely to be "different" or to "break new ground" only adds risk to your animals health without any obvious benefit in return. Why should the animal have to suffer through your "trial & error" husbandry practices. To have a goal or to strive toward improving husbadry techniques is one thing, but to subject your animal to unnecessary risks is another. Being different doesn't make you a pioneer. Success should be defined by long term positive results, anything less is just negligent.

hmmm, what is different?

if my carpets breed fine without light cycles is that bad? if i don't "put mine down" is that bad? how do those things effect health? good question, they don't.

what if someone starts providing some decent nesting material (not newspaper) and starts double clutching? or clutching every 9 months? would that be bad?

sorry, i am now off to attend to a kimberly rock monitor clutch (her third since march). when i got into reptiles they said that wasn't normal, it was bad. they still do actually.

try asking yourself why you do what you do, its kind of fun if you try it.

andrew

"if my carpets breed fine without light cycles is that bad? if i don't "put mine down" is that bad? how do those things effect health?"

ACTUALLY IT IS BAD, IN THAT IT CAN NEGATIVELY AFFECT THE ANIMALS SENSE OF WELL BEING. WE'RE TALING BASIC BIOLOGY HERE; THESE ANIMALS, AND THEIR TRAITS, ARE THE RESULT OF GENETIC MUTATION IN RESPONSE TO ENVIRONMENTAL INFLUENCE. IN OTHER WORDS, THEY HAVE BASIC BIOLOGICAL NEEDS DICTATED BY THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH THEY ORIGINATE. THE CLOSER YOU CAN COME TO MEETING THOSE ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS, THE BETTER. BY ALTERING THOSE CONDITIONS, MERELY FOR THE SAKE OF CONVENIENCE OR AMBITION, YOU PLACE THE ANIMAL'S HEALTH AT ADDITIONAL RISK; EITHER THROUGH INCREASED STRESS OR PHYSICAL HARM.

"double clutching? or clutching every 9 months? would that be bad?"

ONCE AGAIN, BAD...MULTIPLE CLUTCHING IN SUCH A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME PLACES UNDUE PHYSICAL HARDSHIP ON THE ANIMAL'S REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM. FOR EXAMPLE, TO COMPENSATE FOR SUCH AN INCREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF CALCIUM REQUIRED FOR EGG PRODUCTION THE SNAKES BONE DENSITY CAN BE NEGATIVELY AFFECTED. ALSO, YOU ARE PROBABLY STRESSING THE ANIMAL'S HEALTH AND SUBSEQUENTLY SHORTENING ITS OVERALL LIFE SPAN BY REPEATING SUCH A PHYSICALLY DEMANDING ACTIVITY, SUCH AS REPRODUCTION, IN SUCH SHORT PERIODS OF TIME.

man, you have some strange ideas.

i do not care if they do not multi-clutch in the wild or have light cycles in the wild. it does not effect their health in captivity.

that is like saying i should set my bredli up on dirt because they live on it in the wild.

i do that with my monitors, not snakes.

the monitor analogy was relevant, read it again.

and if you knew anything you would know that snakes and other reptiles are opportunistic. that is they go through many different cycles and phases in life based on what resources are available. it is like water pythons that have been proven to reproduce every 9 months in i believe it is (fog dam?). they have the resources to be able to support double clutching.

i just let my animals do what they do and provide them with the resources.

andrew

To back up shiveley on this one. Multiple clutching is OK for some species which double clutch in nature. For others that do not naturally have multiple clutches, however, it will have negative long term results. In addition to calcium depletion there is also the negative relationship between lifetime reproductive output and lifespan to think about. The more offspring a female has the shorter her reproductive years, so you may initially gain more offspring early by forcing multiple clutches, but the average lifetime reproductive output will not change. In other words, multiple cluctched females will, in the end, have as many offspring as singly clutched females.

I supply the references if anyone would like to read the studies themselves.

Cheers,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

that is complete nonsense. and i have heard this crap from people before. there is a prof of biology at a uc school that argues similar stuff a lot, but he doesn't do captive work. none of the people that support your ideas keep animals, they just write about them.

for instance frank retes has a female argus cross that just produced her 50th clutch and she is an old, old monitor. so how has her lifespan been depleted? i can give you lots of examples if you'd like. i had a female argus that i recieved as a 5 year old, she was beatup. i supported her and she ovulated and produced within a month and a half and has multiclutched ever since.

it is about knowing your animals. if you know how to support them, you can go from there. if you know when to feed, how much to feed, do all the small things (change substrates, water regularly, give proper temps and gradients, proper humidity)and know what a healthy animal looks like then lifespan stays the same. the problem is that most people get lazy or try to manage their 500 snakes between two people, etc. this goes for snakes, monitors, bearded dragons, tortoises, turtles, whatever.

? have you asked cornsnake keepers how long theirs live after triple clutching year after year? just as long or longer.

ohhh, one more question to all of you naturalists: why do you remove eggs from the female? is it because you think you are smarter? or you want to beef her back up for next year? thats what i thought.

andrew

Andrew,

I am sorry that you think this is complete nonsense but, as much as you may believe it to be, it is not. What I wrote is not crap, there is a lot of very good science behind these ideas and they are not my own.

You can give many examples of exceptions to the rule, but that does not prove your point. Just because an animal has produced a lot of offspring and lived to old age does not mean that all females of that species will be able to accomplish the same feat. There is tremendous variation in populations; some of that variation will be in reproductive success with some individuals being able to produce many offspring with no ill effects while other can produce only a few. The vast majority of individuals will fall somewhere in between and only be able to produce the norm without some loss of future reproductive success/lifespan.

You are right though. It is about knowing your animals, but on a more fundamental level that you seem to be willing to admit. In your quest to be outside the box and play the misunderstood ground breaker you are overlooking that fact that reptiles are wild animals. They are not domestic and that is why studies of wild animals are applicable.

Finally, there is no need to insult the people you call naturalists. They do not do things because they are arrogant and think they are smatter and you clumping them into one group that you believe think the same way it just wrong. Your final comment is a bit vague as well. Which species are you referring to when you ask about removing eggs from the female?

Cheers,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

You are correct, I shouldn't lump everybody into one place. It just never ceases to shock me how much everybody into snakes goes by the book though, it has been years since anybody has done something really different.

Again, it is about support. I don't care about what this and that population does, it is about support, support, support.

About eggs being removed from the female, I was talking about pythons. Is that natural? Probably not, but many do it. I guarantee the first person that tried that was lambasted.

Look, I am not arrogant enough to think that I am going to do something great. I just don't want to always go by the book.
But don't think I am out to hurt the animals, I know when to pull back when something is not working.

andrew

I think that people tend to "go by the book" because we are dealing with life and that is an awesome responsibility. I did not intend to imply that you were intentially out to injure you animals either, I dont think any of us here would do someting like that.

My point was that all the best quality support you can provide does not counteract basic biology. If you are really interested in finding ways to multiclutch you should do some research into which populations naturally multiclutch as these would be the ones that are most ammendable to captive multiclutching.

I can not speak much as to the reaction that the first breeders got when they stareted to remove eggs from female pythons, I have not been around that long. But, since the main reason pythons stay with eggs is to moderate temperature flucations (through twitching) and defend against predators it has little effect on their physical or mental well being to do so.

I just hope you keep in mind that the stresses we worry about when multiclucting is more than physical. There is also the mental stress that constant preparation for and being pregnate causes. I am also concerned about the quality of life of a female who is just a baby generating machine. Although this is much harder factor to quantify.

Cheers,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Sorry Vinny, I just don't need the money that bad, I have a good job. I just believe that the ultimate product of our husbandry is seen in the success of our animals.

This has been an ongoing debate for years. And it is very much two sided. So believe me, this isn't the first time the subject has come up.

Most animals btw that multiclutch in captivity don't do so in the wild because the resources are not there. The fact is that we are keeping them in the box. Although they are still the same animals, the support is sometimes there to allow them to do extraordinary things.

Again, I would think someone was a real prick for trying to drain every last piece of energy out of an animal for the sake of a buck. With some animals you just can't help but multiclutch them. Like monitors, and with them it isn't even all about food.

andrew

Andrew,

I never said that your intent was finacial gain. Your intentions are your own and not relevent. It's the method I disagree with.

It is unfortunate that you do not see the distinction between what is possible and what is healthy and are unwilling to accept evidence that counters your practices.

If you are really interested in contributing to the debate try maintaing a group of multiclutching females and single cluthed females and keep careful records of food intake, thermal behavior, lifetime reproductve output, lifepsan, age of first and last reproductive event/clutch, etc. I would be interested in the results and so would others. That way you have more than rhetoric to support your ideas.

I hope your animals have all the best future health,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

and I will close my thoughts with this. I side with the snakes, not people. I will do what the snakes tell me to do, not phds, or theorists or anything else. I know what is capable and will allow them to do it, but won't push them.

snakes, monitors, beardies, whatever are very easy to take care of, breed, etc. i mean like i said its about the little things. so if you aren't a moron and know some signs (listening to the snakes)then doing things like keeping them together, double clutching (every 9 months), etc. is not impossible.

perhaps you shouldn't take in everything you hear and read. that would be a boring life.

well i am a keeper and have actual animals to attend to.

andrew