Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Once after a heated chatroom discussion with Mr. Science, Jeffl and I had a private discussion, noted below by Jeff Lemm. I have not brought that up because it was our private discussion, but because he brought it up, I feel I am free to discuss it.

Thank you Jeff.

After everyone left we discussed in a civilized manner, a proper label as to what kind of social, varanids were.

Of course it started, apples to oranges, Jeff said, monitors are not social like People, no they are not, i said, or monkeys, no they are not, or herding stock, no they are not. Of course they are not social like mammals.

So I asked, Jeff, some of your field work is with Cyclura, he said yes, I asked, are they social, he again said yes. So, reptiles, medium to large lizards can be social, yes.

Then he said, but frank, I do not think monitors are "as" social as these rock iggies. I agreed, but I asked, lets compare an iggie thats similar to a monitor in habitat choice. Jeff agreed, I then asked, what about the dwarf spinytailed iggies that live in colonies in dead trees, can we compare them to say, Pygmy mulga monitors that can do the same? Jeff agreed, yea, they are similar. They both live in groups in dead trees, therefore have to be somewhat similar in there social abilities.

So terms were agreed by both of us, reptiles can be reptile social, iggies are iggie social, and monitors can be varasocial, or some such equal term.

We both slept well that night, hahahahahahahaha

All along Jeff and I agreed, we just did not have similar terminology. Just similar concepts.

Heres what I do not agree with Sam Sweet about.

If Sam said to me, some individuals in a population are anti/non-social, I would say, oh heck yes.

If Sam would say, there are times of the year that monitors are not social, I would again say, oh yea, bullya

If Sam would say, there are or may be, species that are not social, I would say, that is entirely possible. As I am not familiar with all species of varanids.

But low and hehold, that is NOT what Sam says, He says all individuals and all species, at all times, are not social. Of course I cannot agree with that, not in the least.

It is Sams poplarization that causes the fights, there is no middle ground. So I said, Sam, if your right, and all wild monitors are not social. It sure looks like captives are to a certain extent. Again, his extreme attack, all captives are not social, in fact anti-social. I again cannot agree, so I show him pics of monitors sitting together. Then Sam gets very very very stupid and makes up stuff. The reason I say that is, I showed Sam pictures, then Sam saw a picture, he did not ask, what happened before the pic, after the pic, or the result of this gathering. He simply spouted out non-sense. Again he says ALL CAPTIVES ARE NOT SOCIAL. I really do find that hard to believe.

Of course its easy to see monitors one at a time. Its easy to keep monitors all by themselves in a cage. But I have seen lots of wild monitors in groups, and I showed sam pics. If Jeff Lemm, had the nads to admit it, he has too, I know hes seen two ackies under a rock or in a burrow, or a group in a small area. Hes most likely seen that with Storrs and kings, and pygmy mulgas, primordius, and western storrs. Heck I was shopping at the night market in Darwin and I saw some art work with monitors in it, I mention to the fella, I was interested in monitors, he said, hey mate, see that tree over there, come mourning it will be, chock-0-block with bloody tree goannas. The next mourning it surely was. I cannot explain why Sam has not seen it.

But again, I can care less(this is what bothers these folks) what the wild ones do. For this forum its about our captives and what they do.

Its simply like this, if you keep them seperate, and later try to introduce them, you may have success, but most likely, you will witness lots and lots of fighting and territorial interactions.

If you raise them together or keep them together from youth, the opposite is true. You can even raise males together and they get along fine, I have several cages with several males

Along that line, once Bernie Eidenmullar came over, he stood there and said, you cannot keep Storrs together. The funny part was, in several cages in front of him, were groups of storrs, each containing several males and several females, and they got along fine. Bernie simply made a noise, hmmmmmmmmmm. As we inspected the storrs, there were indeed several males per cage and the female were gravid.

The point is, whether they are inherently social or not, in nature is great to talk about and very interesting, but it really has no effect on captivity.

While you can say, they are social or anti social, or semi social all you want. The reality in captivity is, they become very social very fast, and do lots and lots and lots of complicated social behaviors. They do things like picking certain individuals as sexual mates and as cage mates and not others, resource sharing and petitioning. Gang hunting and feeding(also shown in nature) Group nesting, etc.

So please forgive me for thinking they are a tiny bit social, as I commonly see these things and I did not teach them that.

If this stuff is a product of being in a cage, then there is only one sure thing, the cage is constand. We have to have cages, so they must do what they do in these cages. If they became social to endure captivity, then fine, that is reason enough.

This picture is the picture. What do you think they are doing, then you can ask Sam what he said, he really makes me laugh Thanks FR

Hy Frank,

we had the discussion about monitors being social or not before and I stated that in my opinion they are NOT social (but couldn't name a lot of arguments). But after reading your post I thought about how Jeff reacted to your "evidences" and I have to admit that I may have made the same mistake. I tend to see monitors not as different individuals but as a group of reptiles. My first thought is that they can not be "social".
On the other hand there is the thing with Bernd Eidenmüller. I think the whole "There is nothing more aggressive as Storr's and you need to seperate them" is based on his experience and opinion (as far as I know here in Germany).

But I'd really like to see some pics of Storr's in one cage. Just to see it by myself.

Best regards,

Timo
Link

Lets see if I have the "nads" as you so eloquently put it. Yes iggies are social, but in a very different way to monitors (or most monitors, especially large). Even large rock iguanas have territories. These can be crossed at some times of the year and not at all in others, much like in some varanids. Smaller iguanas are a bit more social. You can have nearly 100 together on a beach, but this changes drastically during the breeding season. I have seen pairs of monitors near each other, and in rare cases together, but it was the breeding season. Rarely have I seen larger ones together. In view, yes, but not near each other (much like large iguanas). But iguanas interact with bobs, etc., and definitely with pheramones. We don't know how monitors do it. What I'm saying is, monitors, in my opinion, are less social than iguanas, but have some type of socialism (obviously, or they would never breed) that we don't know about. In a cage, I think this is different. As I said of many iguanas, even males can live together when raised in captivity. There may be some aggression at times of the year. So what does this mean - we know nothing about monitor socialism and how it changes in captivity. We did look at stress indicators in albigularis when in groups or when paired (as FR saw). Animals had very high stress levels and never laid...until the females were moved on display far away from the others (and their stress levels went down). But, we did have 16 adults in smelling range when in the stress situation. I guess we can get out of this stuff what we want, but iggies are definitely more social than monitors in my opinion.

Thats not what the nads are for, the question for you was, have you seen monitors together or even close, in nature, same crack, same hole, or many in the same area.(hint,ackies, or storrs in a graveyard) I did not ask why, just have you seen that? To put it in prespective, Sam said, not within 10 meters. Anything within ten meters? for any reason??

Again, monitors are not iggies, so why would they be the same, thats why we came up with varasocial, social in a varanid way, how little or how much is not the question.

Also, as I said, in captivity, its not about what they do in nature, its about what they do here.

When your dealing with reptiles in nature you should concentrate on that. Same for captivity, our concern is here. If anything overlaps, then that is wonderful. I do think lots overlaps, but its not important for captive care.

One tiny example, you brought Richard Jackson over. While we were taking, I mentions how male Lacies seemed to stay with females, then I asked him, had he seen it, then he explained a situation very like this pic.

Hi Frank,

Gonna call you on this one. As far as I can tell, you are referring to an exchange on another forum, copied below, late last year. Here is your comment today, followed by that exchange.

"It is Sams poplarization that causes the fights, there is no middle ground. So I said, Sam, if your right, and all wild monitors are not social. It sure looks like captives are to a certain extent. Again, his extreme attack, all captives are not social, in fact anti-social. I again cannot agree, so I show him pics of monitors sitting together. Then Sam gets very very very stupid and makes up stuff. The reason I say that is, I showed Sam pictures, then Sam saw a picture, he did not ask, what happened before the pic, after the pic, or the result of this gathering. He simply spouted out non-sense. Again he says ALL CAPTIVES ARE NOT SOCIAL. I really do find that hard to believe.

This picture is the picture. What do you think they are doing, then you can ask Sam what he said, he really makes me laugh Thanks FR."

With that picture of three lacies, (30 November 2003) you requested:

"Please view this picture and explain in your opinion, how this relates to monitors being solitary. Thanks Frank"

I replied (30 November 2003):

"Hi Frank,
Nice pic, great animals. See the wire? Cut that away, wait a week, and try to take the same photo. Can either of the two smaller animals raise their heads like the larger one and still have them? I'm not saying they can't, I don't know, and I'm asking if they can.
What am I supposed to say? That they're sociable in nature? Show us a field photo of 3 lacies hanging out, where there's no dead 'roo, no mating, and no combat. Seriously, the fact that you can condition animals to group housing under fairly narrowly-defined conditions principally indicates your experience, skill, and savvy as a keeper. Are you willing to pop a fourth lacie in there? Should be OK if they're sociable by nature, right?
Again, nice pic."

You want to explain yourself? Stop misrepresenting what others say. Tell me how this is "very, very stupid and makes up stuff." And how is this "spouting out non-sense"? Are you a liar, Frank?

In no context is that lying, it can be to misinterpt, or to misunderstand or even to not comprehend, and that could be applied to either of us, thats what discussion is for, not lying, calling something like this lying makes you an arse. hahahahahahahahahaha, I am right too.

What is silly or stupid of you, is to not ask. You do not ask, you tell. The stupid part is, I tested you at least ten times and all ten times, you never asked a thing, you only labelled.

For instance, There is a hole between cages, as there is into the building. They are free to go, three different directions(rooms). Yet they choose to be together. Let me clarify, this group, not another individual. If I threw another male or female in there, they would certainly fight. To me thats making a social decision and defends my arguement. To include some and exclude others of the same species is a social choice, you beanhead.

Second, you did not ask, but happened next. Did he snap their heads off? well no he didn't, in fact very much the opposite. If you would have been kind enough to ask, I would have explained what the picture is. But, you have no need to ask, you know, even it you are not here and have never seen it.

For those interested, I saw the three monitors laying together. I grabed my camera, and opened the door, the male raised up and became alert. I will give you credit that you may and only may, have noticed the alert position, head high and level, eyes wide open, followed by undulations of the tail. Only he was alert because I opened the door, not to keep the females down. I could go on and on about him protecting the females but, that is not the case, hes merely looking for food. It was a nice pic and I took it.

I will tell you this, the males without question protect gravid females, in doing so, they display a completely different attack behavior. Instead of running at you head high, and attempting to bite, either for food or offense, they run at you low to the ground, head low, and swing their head back and forth, trying to wack you with the side of their head. I hope you enjoy that, but its really for others to enjoy.

So yes, you labelling events without benefit of looking for more information is what has led me to take no credence in your work. With every moment in time, there is a moment before, and hopefully a moment after, these other moments are very important to understand the now(the pic)YOU SHOULD ASK. FR

Answer the question. Is that my response, or not, and did you lie about it today?

I cannot comprehend, wheres the lie? explain where a lie occurred if you can. FR

You know this name calling and subject changing is all fun and stuff. I know I love how everytime you get cornered into having to support your words with actual monitors, you simply change the subject, and bring up something else and call names. I understand, most people including me, cannot refuse from returning the favor, and calling you names. But I have tried to stop, and you keep doing it. Great, we are a bunch of old kids.

But all good things must come to an end, Its time for you to step up and show something, we are all interested, your stuff, not someones elses, yours and only yours.

One thing we simpletons know, our animals are a direct reflection of what we know and how we apply it. So again, step up.

I know, I know, we asked before, and frankly thats the point, we have over and over and over.

When you first came here I too had high hopes you would show us something. I too hoped you had a lot to bring to the table. But alas, history has shown all you bring is words and mostly bad words at that. Again, step up.

I had hoped you would show lots of pics of monitors in nature, monitors in captivity, monitors doing all sorts of things, monitors doing anything, maybe some great field stories. Something about being chased by a roo or something, or a croc. I guess I was dreaming. Step up.

You have said how dumb I am and how I cannot comprehend, and how I lie. But I at least show all the above. OK I did not get pics of the croc that gave chase after me. But I do have a pic of a roo I ran down. Step up.

So again I am dreaming, but I still think you have this stuff in you, if only you would drop that ego thing. Step up

I will end with this recurring thought, Sam even if you were right as rain, I would still believe a monitor over you. Anyday, all day. Even if the monitor lied. Step up dude, the people are waiting. FR

FR blabbers: "When you first came here I too had high hopes you would show us something. I too hoped you had a lot to bring to the table. But alas, history has shown all you bring is words and mostly bad words at that. Again, step up."

I have stepped up plenty Frank, and am sick of you lying about that. Anybody who doubts that I have can start here. These take you to some (not all) of my posts in a single month. I challenge anybody to read these, or hundreds of others, and then say that I have not or do not step up.

http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6412
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6401
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6486
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6488
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6493
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6493
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6523
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6544
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6537
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6594
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6607
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6648
http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Main&mode=Archived&message=6695

Here's an example of one of those posts where I don't contribute anything, according to you.

"Re nesting: This is something that you don't see very often in field studies, even when you are locating gravid females every day. You know when they laid and where, but get few details about exactly where. One thing that I think is very important to keep in mind is that all monitors have home ranges, areas to which all of their activities are confined, and the home ranges of females are typically smaller than those of males. What this means is that every female manages to find a nesting site on her own turf. Thus, such places cannot be all that rare. There are a few cases where several females will converge to use a single area (such as a dike wall by V. panoptes, or spoil banks from road construction work by V. spenceri), but there doesn't appear to be anything "social" involved, just several individuals making similar choices independently.

Among the small species that I've studied, I had a single V. glauerti nest about 40-45' off the ground inside the trunk of a very large forest tree. One V. tristis also nested in a topped, hollow tree about 10-11' above ground level. I think, but am not absolutely certain, that one scalaris nested in a similar situation about 40' above ground. There was no way to get at these nests, but I am guessing that the hollow trunks were partly filled with a compost of termite feces, wood debris and bat guano. Similar trees that I examined after they blew over and broke open had plugs of several feet of this stuff, which is of about the same color and consistency as used coffee grounds. It is finely pelleted and easily crumbled, but otherwise holds its shape pretty well -- in other words, a burrow or chamber in it would not collapse easily. It would be great as a potting mix, since it drains freely (between the pellets) but holds a lot of water (in the pellets). There is no shortage of such trees in Australian woodlands, where nearly everything is hollowed out by termites.

The rest of the female scalaris whose nest sites I located (5), and one tristis, chose very long-abandoned termite mounds. These mounds are very common features (several to many per acre), and consist of fine soil cemented with termite spit. Solid on the outside, they are complex honeycombs of tunnels within, usually with a lot of holes extending well underground. Termite frass (pelleted crap) ends up filling the lower chambers. Abandoned mounds slowly erode away, and the last sign of one is usually a slight depression in the soil, where the usual gravel and laterite nodule ground cover is absent. The lizards selected these very old mound sites, and went 2-3' underground and about the same distance laterally to lay. I did not excavate any of these, but a gouldii did get the tristis clutch. The material it dug through last included this same pelleted termite frass, and I suspect that all of the other clutches would have been laid in similar stuff.

If I was going to try to duplicate this material I'd get finely ground and composted bark, and sift it through a window screen when there was enough breeze to blow away any dust. What you want is something like river sand composed of a material that absorbs some water.

Re Mate selection: This one is simple; in the wild males mate with females that live in or near their own home ranges. They have known each other most of their lives, but they have NOT been crawling over each other, and live quite separately. The males seek out the females on the females' turf. In the small species I know, males will visit as many females as they can reach without going too far beyond their normal boundaries, and may visit and mate with each such female every 4-8 days.

Females of the arboreal species (glauerti, scalaris and tristis) avoid males very easily when they are not interested -- they simply go into or remain in hollow branches that the males cannot enter (or at least, you can't get two in there). The males will try long and hard to get in, but they cannot, nor could they injure the females (I never saw any rough business between pairs, and doubt it occurs in these species in nature). When a female is willing to mate, she goes to a larger hollow limb.

One of the greatest things I've seen in years of watching wild monitors involved a pair of tristis. I had located the female resting inside a 4' long, 1.5" diameter hollow dead branch about 35' up in a 60' tree. I recorded that information, and switched the radio receiver through the frequencies of other animals in that part of the study site, trying to decide which animal to locate next. I got a strong signal from a male I had seen only a few minutes earlier about 200 yards away, so I sat on a log for a minute, and saw him climb a couple of feet up a trunk about 100' away. He dropped down, then reappeared on a trunk next to the tree with the female, and quickly climbed that tree, then jumped across into the canopy of the female's tree, ran down the upper limbs, and went straight to her branch. He tried to get into the stub end of this branch and couldn't, making quite a fool of himself. While he was doing this, the female backed out of a crack about 2' down the branch, approached the male and bit him on the kneee and held on. The male finally got his head unstuck, and the two of them sat there for a few seconds before the female turned and walked back to the main trunk with the male right behind her. She went up to another branch and into a much larger hollow, where two tails were hanging out when I left."

So do yourself a favor, Frank. Quit lying. You've always hated it when I posted content, and still do.

Be a man Sam, both of us have wa wa waed till the cows come home. We have both spoke are peace, eveyone is tired of it, Eveyone wants to see yours for comparision.

Come one Sam, let your pics do the talkin.

You say, this is bad, and that is bad, and so on and so forth, We want to know where you get that, First, my monitors that do the, so on and so forth, look great, live long and are tough as nails. I do and will show it.

Sam show us the ones that are better, show us the ones that it was delerious too. STEP UP.

Frankly I think its all in your pencil pushing, antenne spewing head. Show us, STEP UP.

Come on dude, whats the matter, I am begining to think you have nothing to show.

We want to see the stuff that caused you to write what you do, or is it all out if the air? STEP UP

This ain't OZ(school) Sam, here you got to show it, not talk it. This is the real world, FR

You're flat on your back on this one. Where I come from, people get caught lying once and that's the end. As far as I'm concerned, that's you all over. No credibility. Sorry, you're out.

except your out, Come on months or years in the field NOT ONE PIC, supposedly keeping Goulds and Croc monitors yet NOT ONE PIC. And you expect people to believe the endless rhetoric (of which none is new).....

Frank has helped many people (including me), your goal here seems to be to annoy and confuse, and the places I come from you are called a troll, man that education sure did pay off.

--Robert

From what I've seen, Sam does have pictures. In fact I have some on my webpage.

I believe that he has photos, which he perhaps holds back. Maybe he's waiting for the proper forum, maybe he's got a book on the way and doesn't want to give away his content, maybe he doesn't feel like using a 'free' photo host, and maybe his wife won't let him post photos. Who cares? Has anyone else in this forum really been to Australia and completed any research? Anyone who is so free with that information? I KNOW Sam has. Can't we all use that to our advantage and perhaps learn and get more enjoyment out of our hobby?

As for FR helping people, sure he tries if he feels like it, or if he likes you. It’s his choice too, it’s his time, and he can do whatever he wants. I think Sam has a lot of insight and as a professional in his field I respect that. He teaches for a living, I don't think he's ever really been given a shot at adding very much without pretty stout criticism.

I think if everyone didn't pile onto a topic with, "good post NP", or "bad post here's why" and we all just got together and learned it would be a much more productive forum.

Maybe as a collective we could work toward a more monitor centric forum. Let’s get a topic going, and stick with it, something related to monitors. Lets get an in-depth discussion on .. herp first aid, herp physiology, anything on a scientific scale. Sure we’ll B.S. and show pix but we’ll also learn.

Let’s work from Grade school up through graduate level. We’ll save it and use it for future reference. We've got the resources here, if we use them. Mark can give us the authors and the good books, Sam can do the teaching, FR can give us a real world application, and everyone else with experience can chime in, and a vet or another expert can fill in the blanks where needed. Take a poll find out how often the regulars visit, and create a structure we can all follow so we can all participate and ask questions and get answers without fighting.

We have to make it happen, it’s up to everyone on here. STEP UP and make it happen. Be the better wo/man, do what you can.

O

Could it be that I actually care about my (and other people's) monitors, I know I am just after breeding them to cut into the import market and make money, but perhaps I do actually care just a bit. Nahhhh.

Holding back for a book? I don't believe you said that, so he's spreading misinformation or only limited leaks of information, is it some kind of a viral marketing thing (that is all the rage nowadays), that really improves his standing now.

I don't care why he says what he says, it's mostly BS when it comes to captives, and that is what I have.

Sorry Oscar, you seem like a nice kid, but you are a bit gullible, it shows in the friends/people you support.

--Robert

Hi Robert,

"I don't care why he says what he says, it's mostly BS when it comes to captives, and that is what I have.

Sorry Oscar, you seem like a nice kid, but you are a bit gullible, it shows in the friends/people you support."

The same can also be said for you, and the 'friends' you choose as well...it is the opposite side of the coin....what Oscar is/was saying is that if we all post collaboratively and help one another rather than banter back and forth about who can piss farther, who is smarter, etc, blah blah blah, it would be more productive don't you think?

ALOT of people do not post here because of the strife and condemnation, egoes, whatever displayed on this forum, and for the most part they're right. More people posted, the better the discussions, and learning about these animals would follow, and that is what we're all after isn't it? To better understand Varanus...??

Oscar's opinion is valid one, and can help all of us if we work together more-so than spend our time working to tear one another apart - however much fun that can be sometimes - how about it??

As for holding back information, we all do this, for reasons that are our own, and there is nothing wrong with that. As Oscar said, there is a plethora of reasons why we do this, and really nobody's business anyways, but we can still share in a collaborative manner, and all can benefit from this.... so I say along with Oscar, How about it??

mbayless

1) I've done it both ways. Solitary and Group.
2) I've done light cycles all sorts of ways.
3) I've used nest boxes, and deep substrates.
4) I've misted, soaked, quarantined
5) I've listened to everything and applied what I thought would work.
6) I've frozen more monitors trying to make them wild monitors (ARM), then just providing the simple things and letting them be.

So what does this mean? That I could care less who says what, my husbandry is for my monitors.

Is that gullible, nope, sorry that one doesn't fit me, perhaps I'm just too quiet when I think people are full of it.

--Robert

Hi Robert,

I too have done all those things, and it can be very frustrating when one passes away - I took it very hard when this occured. But there is always room for learning, and that is what it is all about on these forums, right?
Good Luck,
mbayless
1) I've done it both ways. Solitary and Group.
2) I've done light cycles all sorts of ways.
3) I've used nest boxes, and deep substrates.
4) I've misted, soaked, quarantined
5) I've listened to everything and applied what I thought would work.
6) I've frozen more monitors trying to make them wild monitors (ARM), then just providing the simple things and letting them be.

So what does this mean? That I could care less who says what, my husbandry is for my monitors.

If you do care, then why not try to improve first, the reputation of the forum in advancing and publicizing the hobby, and secondly you'll probably get more information about how to help decrease importation, and promote captive breeding.

I don't know why Sam doesn't show photos, I was just giving a few reasons why he might not want to show his photos. Once again, not EVERYONE is a photo genius, maybe there are a lot of thumbs and fingers, or some terrible framing shows up in his photos, (e.g. oops I can’t see the top of that monitors head!). Maybe he doesn't like having images hosted.

I don't think what he says is B.S. I think that your proximity to Frank, (e.g. posting on his personal forum, being his friend etcetera) might be compromising your objectivity in this case. I think Frank is a very commanding presence and I don’t think its being obtuse to believe that he can create a following. I just think you’re part of it. There is nothing wrong with it, however I think we need to re-channel this energy to a different endeavor.

As for being B.S. about captives, I know he has captives; perhaps his time in the field can help improve the care of those captives you have. Sounds like its worth a try, especially given his accolades.

I don't think I'm gullible, I think that I give people the benefit of the doubt, and that every person is different. I think just about every member of this community has something to offer and in the least some drive to come here. The people “I support” are simply people, I think it has more to do with who I know, and if I have information about said person, if I spoke with you more often and on a personal basis, you might see me standing beside you supporting you. No one deserves to be picked on, or nit picked. It’s a thing called constructive criticism.

I still think if we really made and effort as a collective we could really get something going in this FREE forum that would be WORTH something. Let’s take advantage of the freedoms, and resources we’re given and create something that’s worth a darn.

O

I do care about captives. I don't care about Sam's ideals on what captivity should be like, I am to busy on what it IS like.

I do consider Frank (and other's on the other forum) friends, yeah bad me. It doesn't really have much, if anything to do with monitors though.

The gullible thing was low, I apologize for that.

--Robert

Hey having them as friends isn't a bad thing, its just that they might influence you. Nothing wrong with that, what are friends for!

Just join in the fun and we'll all be in good shape. I've already started up above. Thanks for participating.

O