Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Yes, people, save this one for future reference.
Venomoid snakes are not for everyone and nor should they be.
Ten years from now, the biggest driver for venomoid operations will be for the welfare of the snake.
Those who don't believe Raymond Hoser now should save this post and look back at it in 10 years time to see if he is right.
Answers to arguments/points of view raised in threads below are addressed in my next post following on from this.
Cheers
Raymond Hoser

Points of view only. Please no flames.
1/
MsTT's comments re allegedly unsanitary methods and other alleged faults of the venomoid procedure used by Hoser 2004 are not an accurate appraisal of the operation. The criticisms will be dealt with at another time and place in print. However taking MsTT's comments at face value (Hoser a grubby butcher), noting the end result (well-adjusted snakes) actually represents an advertisement for the procedure in that with such (bad?) methods 17 out of 17 snakes can present as perfect end products (healthy and well adjusted and no observable pain and suffering) - so theoretically a procedure done as MsTT advocates or recommends (sterile gear, proper cutting, sutures, etc) would be a dead certainty for success - hence maybe no more horror stories of botched operations?.
2/ This is a venomous forum (not venomoid by name) - true - BUT it is a forum devoted to venomous species, NOT venoms. Venomoids are of the same species and hence may be discussed (fair game?) and especially when captive management of them is being considered.
3/ The forum below seemed divided among those who use venomoids for shows and support the idea and those who don't (and prefer hots). I used hots only for decades (without incident) and roughly a year back started using some venomoids in shows etc (while still using some hots as well). It was when the advantages of the venomoids became compelling that I switched to using all venomoids in shows.
4/ Re my above post, a major driver for the operation (later ones) was the snake's welfare, not even the advantage in terms of the shows. No matter what spin is put on handling venomous snakes, the fact is that free-handling is to the snake's benefit as opposed to hooks and tongs.
Even if hooks and tongs are prefered for public shows (sending the right message?) the fact is that in terms of management at home (your facility) free-handling is better for the snake and that is why most people do not use hooks and tongs on harmless snakes. Venomoids can be afforded the same luxury and will prefer it. For decades my snakes survived well as venomous and being handled appropriately. However that it was always done that way didn't make it best. It was merely the best means available.
Venomoid surgery has effectively improved the lifestyles of the affected snakes in terms of their welfare in the captive situation due to their being free handled. People who see the improvement in terms of day to day management and the snakes themselves are often coverted to the idea of venomoids (for either right or wrong reasons).
Why are snakes handled at home?
Yes their cages are occasionally cleaned, and yes, they occasionally get moved and transported and yes, for the shows, they must be picked up and placed in boxes at the start of tyhe day and again the reverse at the end of the day (That's at least two less hookings per snake per day).
Summary - I believe that venomoid snakes have a legitimate place in herpetology (along with unfixed) and a sizeable part of this consideration involves the benefit to the snake.
ALL THE BEST
17 out of 17 successful venomoid operations

Another rediculous post by you.... Are you the same Ray Hoser that wrote that poor excuse for a varanid book???? If so, I dont think I need to say anymore....

Archive one of your posts? Who would bother?

Bill Huseth

>>Archive one of your posts? Who would bother?

Anyone interested in reporting an unqualified person without any sort of licence to the authorities for performing surgery on animals, for instance.

Cheers,

WW
-----
WW Home

So it is not in fact true that you use cold torpor alone with no anesthesia or pain medication to operate on a non sterilizable wooden plank surface using nails and rubber bands for restraint, as is depicted and described in your own published work? And it is true that you are legally licensed to perform veterinary surgery? Please do correct these impressions if they are not accurate.

The fact that so many of your victims survive is not a testament to your procedures so much as the sheer toughness of a basically healthy snake. An adult snake in good body condition can survive some really frightful injuries including gunshot wounds and other massive trauma. This does not mean that taking potshots at them for fun is good husbandry.

The fact that you, Ray, are unable to handle venomous snakes in a gentle and humane manner does not mean that the techniques for doing so do not exist. All of the competent professional keepers I know who maintain collections for zoological parks and educational programs use modern humane methods that do not involve any kind of pinning or rough handling. It is a shame that there are people out there who are unwilling or unable to learn modern professional methods of handling, and instead resort to animal mutilation without anesthesia.

The phenomenon of pain and suffering in reptiles is not one that is currently very well addressed even in the veterinary profession. The most modern research on the subject conclusively states that snakes certainly do feel pain, but they are significantly cryptic in their visible behavioral responses. They do not whimper or cry in pain like mammals, and consequently we have a hard time sympathizing with their pain because we expect these mammalian responses and do not see them. But they do feel it, and they undergo measurable physiological and biochemical changes in response to pain. The current standard in veterinary medicine is to give pain relief for a reptile in any situation where it would be appropriate for a mammal.

You seem to be missing that standard. You are also missing a veterinary license, which makes your procedures illegal as well as completely inappropriate. You can continue to post as many dubious justifications as you like, but that's a rather serious issue that you will need to explain to your local animal welfare authorities rather than to a forum of herp hobbyists.

IMO, making venomoids is similar to when the egyptian Faraos made Eunuchs. No one but the Farao got any benefit from this.

If the keeper is to afraid to handle hots, get a corn snake. Dont remove it's venomglands and teeth, and then come and say that the SNAKE benefits from it. SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!!

To the preceding correspondent.
1/ The venomoid surgery being discussed here does not involve ripping out teeth (and never has) and hence you are misrepresenting the facts.
2/ You fail to note that in the cases here in Australia, the operation was not carried out by or for a person who is afraid to handle hots - quite the contrary, myself and my assistants have far more experience handling hots than I assume you do, in my case three decades including most of the best known deadlies (taipans. Adders, etc) and similar for my assistants, some of whom post on the www.
In these cases, the snake's welfare was the overriding factor pushing for the operations (no need to hook and pin them day to day).
Hence both main claims in your post are effectively redundant.
The only concession that can be made is that you have (again) pointed out strong arguments 1/ Against venomoid surgery done the wrong way (of which I agree with you) and 2/ Wrong reasons for a person to want it (agreed again).
However neither are "knock out blows" in terms of ruling out the surgery either for the benefit of snake or keeper.
Cheers.

If you MUST have a "safe" venomous snake, why not take fresh, ACCIDENTAL roadkill to the taxidermist? Those ones can.t kill anyone either, they weren't injured or killed delibrately, and their death still serves a purpose(although a small one)