Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It is now 1am and I'm finally able to type and see - as I've been crying for 2 hours now. Bob is dead. We're pretty certain he's dead. We have not a clue how or why... here's the background:
We got Bob, the baby ball python (16 inches) 2 weeks ago tonight from a reputable pet store in town. He seemed to be happy. Even enjoyed being coddled - he gave us hugs. He did poop once (on my leg) - and friends told me it was the correct color.
Tonight, my son went in to get Bob to show him to his girlfriend. When he reached in - Bob bit him (for the first time). My son held his tail while my husband opened his mouth.
One hour later he was beyond listless - dangling in my son's hand. He was shallowly breathing. We were going to try and feed him (he still hadn't eaten in 2 weeks - I know that's not a problem... we were going from him getting live feedings at the pet store to frozen thawed)
I called the pet store we had gotten him from. She said he must be getting ready to shed. They will bite and act dead sometimes when getting ready. (this is what she told me)
Problem was: Bob didn't have "cloudy eyes" - I don't think shedding was the case.
Two hours later, my son drags me into his room - Bob is no longer moving at all (no breathing in his stomach or anything). And it looks like his inner body has shrunk terribly - his skin is wrinkled and shrivled. We tested him in water - no response, nothing.
I know he's dead.
Here's my deepest concern - we followed everything to the letter (with one exception: we did take him out on the 2nd day and he curled right up in our laps... we didn't leave him alone) - we sanitized the aquarium - we have a heat lamp - we have a thermometer we watched almost hourly - he had fresh water every night - we used "turf" stuff from the pet store - we had a rock for shedding (with a "hidey hole" and also a log thingy for hiding also (bought at the store - not from outside...).
There was no mucus in his nostrils - no wheezing - no "hissing noise" - no mites at all (checked with a microscope even!) - his eyes were bright. Could it still be a resperatory disease? Should I take him to the vet to determine cause of death? Could we have killed him by taking him out for 10 minutes a night from day 2? Could he have gotten anything from my dog or cat that I need to be aware of? And, if we get another ball python, can we still use the same habitat if we sanitize it all????
DEAR LORD, I NEVER THOUGHT AS A 37 YEAR OLD WOMAN I WOULD BE CRYING OVER A SNAKE!!! I'm a basket case, and my 15 year old son keeps asking me why?
Please, as knowledgeable snake people - can anyone help me with this dilema???

Not knowing enough or witnessing the situation makes it hard to tell. Is it possible you guys may have accidentally broken his neck or back somewhere along the way. If force was applied pulling his tail in one direction and then holding and moving the head in other directions as you were trying to remove him after the bite I think it is entirely possible you could have broken his neck which led to his paralysis and eventual death.
I can't be sure because this is a vague situation, but baby balls can be very fragile if not handled carefully.

"Tonight, my son went in to get Bob to show him to his girlfriend. When he reached in - Bob bit him (for the first time). My son held his tail while my husband opened his mouth.
One hour later he was beyond listless"

It seems he was fine before this as he had the strenght and cordination to bite. Then after he was removed he became weakened.

I have yet to have a ball python bite and latch on.
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www.NEWReptiles.com

ball....weak....no food....dying......

bites you....they all bite..balls are like that ....wild animals hate people........

so...he is excited.......using his strength........

then....he dies........

he used all his last strength.....that little bit of excitement.......pushed it over the edge.....

same thing happens if you get a weak animal.....wait a few weeks...then force feed it.....the system finally has food and cannot handle it...and forcing it will cause it to die really faster.......even overnight.....(trust me,,done this).....

............JY
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That is exactly how I read it too. It is a very sad story and hopefully something to learn from. I have never had a BP latch on or even nip at me so I don't know how I would react. I do know that if they latch on you can use warm water or even alcohol (vodka) in a spray bottle to make them let go.
Also, you said his skin was wrinkly? It sounds like he may have gone into shed and was at the end ready to lose the layer so his eyes would be clear just before this occurs. The under skin is very sensitive like a sunburn and he would not want to be touched. My baby BP does not show his cloudy eyes near as much as my older BP. His eyes just never go blue, maybe it is his age but he sheds just fine.
Don't let anyone tell you "it was just a snake"! You feel what you feel and that is okay!

well....you said you did everything to the letter.....

but you played with him too much?

I don't know how long..and I don't know hwta is too much....

but.....

heat lights dry them out.....what was the actual temp in the cage and on the surface of the cage floor where Bob laid.?....82 to 86 is good ......

not in an air conditioned room ? correct?.......
they need humidity ,and light and conditioner dry them out.

......anyways......stop crying....except for the money loss.....

here is what went wrong......

you bought an imported baby from Africa....that spent too much time in holding bins there...then holding bins or over crowded bags here....(no water)..then shipped to another dealer...(same bags)...then maybe even a smaller dealer?......then a petshop.....

first off...buy a ball born,bred,rasied here in the USA,......you'll have a much better result........

and remember..when you ask people.." is it captive" they say yes......yes it's captive....from Africa.....even if you ask...is it captive from here...alot will flat out lie to you......

......

......Thanx....sorry......JY
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I am very sorry for your loss! It sounds like you had a sick/weak baby from the start. There are always some in a litter that don't survive no matter what. As far as what caused his death, there are a few things you can consider. He MAY have been injured while removing him from whoever he bit. That's a possibility. The best way to make a snake release it's grasp is running it under water. That ususally works, and doesn't injure the snake. Also, you said you disinfected his enclosure. Snakes are very susceptible to poisoning from chemicals. He could have died from that. The only sure fire way to find out what killed him is a necropsy by a vet. If there is one around, do that. That will at least give you peace of mind knowing what happened, and if by chance it was something done inadvertently by your care, you can correct it for the next snake. BPs are great snakes to have. If you get another, make sure it is captive born and BRED. Captive born just means the eggs were collected from a wild caught female or from Africa and hatched in captivity. Send me an email if you need to talk. I'm a 37 year old Mom with kids and a BP, too. kmwoodworth@yahoo.com
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1.1 Ball Python 1.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon 2.0 Solomon Island Boas 0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband

I think it could have been a combination of things. What are you using to measure temps? If it's a round dial type thermometer your temps may be off as much as 20 degrees. Get a digital. Other than what's already been said that's all I can think of.

Sorry this happened.
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Rob Talkington

Can I just say, in 6 hours from my post - your replies all helped more than you can know. I spent most of the night looking up stuff - and never did I find that you could break a neck? or that there's a difference between captive BRED vs BORN - and the shipment from Africa??? I did ask if he was captive born... but that's all we saw in researching to find him.
We did have a digital thermometer... but 83-84 was the temp we kept seeing - the higher temp area (which I finally found) wasn't really mentioned.
Air conditioning? yep - can't live without it... and I just realized when I went in to my son's room - he has his fan on 24/7 - the next baby will not be in there - we will put him in the library where the A/C is closed and no fan.
Weak? I didn't think he was... he would "squeeze" us when we spent our "bonding" time (incidentally that was about 10 minutes a night... then he would get a bit cooler, and we would put him back...) But - as a first time owner - I guess I wouldn't know if it was a strong or week squeeze...
THANK YOU SO MUCH - AND IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER INFO ABOUT GETTING THE FIRST (WELL, SECOND) PYTHON THAT ISN'T PREVALENT OUT THERE - I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT ALSO!!!
Thanks again,
Jewely

weak babies don't have much weight.....they are skinny.....big captive born/bred in the USA are fat and full.....they look like they will defecate on you at all times (usually) because they are well fed and watered.......

skinny babies...loose skin....no weight....all signs of weakness and African imported.....

good luck........

what state are you located in..?...maybe we can point you in the right breeder direction......?

JY
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Hmmm... sounds suspicious to me too. I was too much of a basket case today (the day from hades - wake up to no Bob, fight with the hubby, the program at work crashes 2 hours of work, I bite into a bagel and break a tooth - no insurance, and gonna have it pulled Thurs - someone give me some good news!!!)
I live in Northern Illinois - just outside of Rockford. I looked for a dealer under the listing on this website, and only found one in Chicago (but it might just be worth the 2 hour drive!).
I'm definitely willing to get any names, numbers or locations of a real dealer. I'm a bit upset at the Pet Store... but not much more can be done there. Just no more business!
Thanks!
Jewely
(and yes - as of tomorrow I insist that we have fun!!! I hate being depressed!)

Why don`t you contact Rob Carmichael at Lake Forest? He does breeding and rescue and is almost always looking for home for homeless Pythons. He is really a neat guy and will be lots of help. Here is a link to his webpage.
Rob`s Page

yea...I don't know too many people out there either......

Mike Heinrich from the corn forum.........don't know if he could help you...........he is out there close.......

.......good luck........

I think there is a Chicago show?.......right?........

..........I'd have to check............

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Try Chicago Reptile House in Orland...call in advance to make sure they have plenty of balls in (which they usually do)...I have 5 ball pythons ranging from 1 year to 3 years all of them are from Chicago Reptile House! I have never had any problems with them. We also got a ton of spiders there, a green iguana (which we got over 8 years ago), a sand boa, mexican black ratsnake, albino california kingsnake, 2 aquatic turtles....THE LIST GOES ON! The are very helpful guys, and I HIGHLY RECOMEND THEM! It will be a bit of a drive, but I think it is worth it!
Here is their link
http://www.chicagoreptile.net/

Good luck!
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*Amy*

Hi,
I just hatched out a few normal Ball Pythons. If you want to pay for shipping i will send you one for free. And then i will walk you through the proper care. You can call or email if you are interested.
Hope this helps
Jon Dvoretz
561 385 30001
nextworld3@bellsouth.net
Next World Exotics
Our Website

You are very sweet!! I definately would send a care sheet along with your baby. Not that I think this would happen again but pet stores are not known for handing out good and/or accurate information. I hope everything goes well, take care.

Oh my, I don't know what to say... thank you! We've all been basket cases, and I'll bring it up to my dh tonight, and we might just take you up on it... as long as you can handle phone calls for questions!!
I felt so awful about Bob. (Well, honestly, I still FEEL awful about Bob) I'm hesitant only because I don't want to hurt another snake again!!!! I still don't know what was the problem... but from the wonderful posts here - I honestly think we probably broke his neck... but I still think he was a bit sickly also - probably a combination of pet store quality and some lack of knowledge on our part...
Thank you so much for your offer - and I know by looking over your site that baby would be well taken care of!!!
Jewely