Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off, I am *very* new to herps/hots/etc so if this is obviously a stupid post, please accept my apologies in advance

I understand that the principle argument against venomoids is that snakes require their venom to properly digest meals.

It seems that only snakes posessing a hemotoxin would be impacted by the loss of their venom by that argument, no?

Do any herp neurotoxins break down the animals flesh and aid in digestion?

And yes, btw, I understand that there are other arguments against venomoids, but until I see the people taking a 'moral' stand against the surgery lining up to:

- protest the declawing of cats
- insist on the banishment of live animals in circus's
- demand a broad based increase of resources to zoo's

..I cant help but suspect their arguments are based more in the realm of machismo than sincere concern for the animals welfare.

I'm not saying I "promote" venomoid surgery, btw, but I cant help but wonder if a king cobra would prefer living for years as a venomoid in a well maintained cage as opposed to getting thrashed and skinned by a terrified field worker in what was its nesting area last year and is now the middle of a crop..

On the relatively rare occasions that the venomoid operation is performed by a licensed veterinarian using sterile instruments and appropriate anesthesia, post operative pain medications and antibiotics, the animal recovers well and there do not tend to be any serious long term consequences. However the operation still does cause serious pain and suffering. If you have ever had a root canal or other major dental surgery, you will understand that a major invasive operation to remove organs that are rooted deep inside the jaw is not a simple or painless thing.

In short, it hurts the snake rather a lot. If I came over and cut both your ears off with a knife, you would heal up just fine and continue to function normally. Does this argument make it okay for someone to do this to you?

You don't seem to understand venom very well. Not all vipers are hemotoxic - that's a relatively rarer subclass of toxins rather than a general grouping. I suspect you meant to say "cytotoxic vs neurotoxic", which is still a bit misleading because not all that many snakes are exclusively one type or another.

Many vipers do have cell-destroying proteins and proteolytic enzymes that speed digestion of their prey. Many elapids (and some vipers) are primarily neurotoxic, with the function of their venom seeming to be more one of capturing prey than helping to digest it. But even the primarily neurotoxic venoms do likely serve as an aid to digestion to some extent as they have antibacterial properties. And there are neurotoxic vipers and cytotoxic elapids, snakes that are a mixture of both, and snakes that are primarily neurotoxic as neonates and primarily myotoxic or cytotoxic as adults.

The digestive advantage of venom is very helpful to a wild snake who may capture prey and then experience an immediate shift in the weather. A captive snake with a constant heat source does not particularly need this advantage. It does not need its venom for survival any more than you need your external ears.
Before you argue that this justifies venomoiding, consider that a dog or a cat or a person for that matter could survive without quite a few of its body parts. Selectively removing pieces of a living creature's body because they are inconvenient to you is ethically dubious at best. If you cannot keep an animal without cutting pieces off of it, perhaps you should leave it in the wild or in the zoo where it belongs.

Declawing a cat is a very serious invasive procedure that causes significant pain and suffering to the animal merely for the owner's convenience. Both of these kinds of essentially cosmetic, non health benefit surgeries to animals are illegal in the UK and considered animal cruelty.

The alternative to venomoiding is not euthanasia, but placing the animal in a properly qualified professional facility. There is no shortage of those. I have never had difficulty finding homes for fully venomous snakes that were done with their rehabilitation, and my standards are high enough to exclude most private keepers. One of my standards is "no venomoiders".

The message that venomoiders are trying to get across is fundamentally, "I am willing to put an animal through pain and suffering and mutilation so that I can have a cool pet to play with." There really is no other bottom line here. Any competent professional keeper using up to date handling methods can manage a healthy venomous snake in captivity in a safe and humane manner. If you cannot do so, please do not hurt and mutilate the animals for your selfish gratification. Leave their keeping to others who can give them good quality homes without pain and suffering.

i suspect cytotoxic is a more appropriate term than neurotoxic for the discussion, yeah.

i guess the point im trying to make is that some snakes are probably *much* better suited for venomoid life than others, and ultimately life for a venomoid in a well maintained cage with a dedicated and well educated person maintaining it might not be the worst case scenario for that animal, especially if its CB.

what could probably benefit greatly from healthy debate is the definition of "dedicated and well educated person".

i also wanted to mention something a vet told me once; she said that a lot of people tend to sympathize with animals to the point of projection, but lots of animals have completely different tolerance thresholds for pain and shock than humans. i may very well be one of those people btw; i do regard de-clawing cats as criminal, but i also regard the conditions that most animals in zoo's are kept in to be criminal.

anyway, she went on to explain that the same environmental factors (nature being a fundamentally unforgiving and violent place) that fine tuned mamba venom over hundreds of thousands of years to the miracle of lethality it is today, also gave animals an enhanced ability to tolerate physical trauma.

which is to say, physical damage that would send a human into a shock induced death-spiral is often shrugged off completely by animals in the wild (at least until infection sets in).

conversely, a sustained 15-20 degree change in temperature over the course of 2 or 3 minutes can provoke shock and death in the vast majority of wild animals, but leave the average healthy human unphased.

regardless; given that there are a great many owners of venomoids, and that the surgery isnt going away any time soon and is in fact getting more sophisticated and less traumatic as it evolves, perhaps we should encourage more venomoid owners to share survival data without flaming them?

i think a FAQ displaying the various species long-term responses to venomoid surgery could go a long way towards keeping unsuitable snakes from incurring lethal cosmetic surgery, which is, after all, the highest goal we can all aspire to.

one final point, there is a great deal of debate regarding *why* someone would want a venomous snake after its been made venomoid? the usual take on this is that its vanity, or some immature death fetish etc.

its been my experience that animals that contain sophisticated toxins (elapids, cepholopods) tend to exist higher up on the evolutionary ladder. this enhanced refinement in their evolutionary curve is typically duplicated by their position in the food chain; king cobras are regarded as the most aggressive, lethal, and intelligent of snakes. blue ring octopus' are also the most cunning, lethal, and intelligent of the cephs.

so i think a lot of people purchasing venomoids arent so much looking for the typical concept of a "pet" (something to handle and get a sense of comradary from) but are simply seeking to be in the presence of an evolutionary masterpiece and enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of providing that animal a non-hostile environment to live out its days.

granted, there are probably many more flakes who want to impress the fly ladies by 'free handling' their cheaply butchered cobras etc, but arent there just as many meth cooks, coke runners, and assed out bikers with hot rattlers in a fishtank in the living room?

again, with a healthy discourse in a non-hostile environment, maybe we can weed out both ends of the flake spectrum while making sure that some beautiful animals get to live long and happy ( to a snake ) lives?

"i suspect cytotoxic is a more appropriate term than neurotoxic for the discussion, yeah."

No, cytotoxic is a more appropriate term than hemotoxic.

It is very sad to see people keeping venomoids because they have evidently not bothered to learn anything about venomous snakes. It takes time and effort to gain the education and skills necessary to be a competent snake keeper. I wish people would take the time to learn instead of buying their instant gratification shortcuts in a snake's blood and pain.

"i guess the point im trying to make is that some snakes are probably *much* better suited for venomoid life than others, and ultimately life for a venomoid in a well maintained cage with a dedicated and well educated person maintaining it might not be the worst case scenario for that animal, especially if its CB."

You are missing the point completely. There are really no snakes that will adapt better than others to being mutilated. All of them do about equally well in the long term assuming they have recovered fully from surgery. The problem with venomoiding is not the long term consequences, but the short term pain and suffering especially when the "operation" is done by an unlicensed person who is not using pain medication.

"i also wanted to mention something a vet told me once; she said that a lot of people tend to sympathize with animals to the point of projection, but lots of animals have completely different tolerance thresholds for pain and shock than humans."

A lot of humans have different tolerance thresholds for pain and shock as well. Page back a few world wars, and you'll read accounts of soldiers routinely having limbs amputated without anesthesia. This is not considered an acceptable practice today, even though many humans can tolerate and survive it.

"anyway, she went on to explain that the same environmental factors (nature being a fundamentally unforgiving and violent place) that fine tuned mamba venom over hundreds of thousands of years to the miracle of lethality it is today, also gave animals an enhanced ability to tolerate physical trauma."

A basically healthy adult snake can tolerate an incredible amount of trauma before it dies. You can literally eviscerate and decapitate it, and it will continue moving and responding to stimulus for quite some time. You can beat the hell out of it, tear its flesh open, damage its internal organs, and sometimes it will even survive. I have patched some snakes back together that were hurt that badly. It is almost impossible to humanely euthanize a reptile without drugs because they are so very tough and slow to die.

None of these things is a good justification for inflicting pain on reptiles. Quite to the contrary. They can tolerate a massive amount of physical trauma without dying, and while that helps them in an evolutionary sense, it can be incredibly cruel to the individual animal.

"conversely, a sustained 15-20 degree change in temperature over the course of 2 or 3 minutes can provoke shock and death in the vast majority of wild animals, but leave the average healthy human unphased."

Where in the world are you digging up these supposed facts? Citations please.

"regardless; given that there are a great many owners of venomoids, and that the surgery isnt going away any time soon and is in fact getting more sophisticated and less traumatic as it evolves, perhaps we should encourage more venomoid owners to share survival data without flaming them?"

Survival rates are near 100% if the operation is done by a licensed veterinarian with appropriate medications and tools on healthy adult snakes. Survival rates are very low if the hacking is done by amateur butchers with non sterile tools and no pain meds on freshly imported snakes. Unfortunately the majority of the venomoids sold on the market today are the illegal work of unlicensed amateurs who do not use pain medication.

There will never be an end to the condemnation you will face because you chose to buy your personal gratification in a snake's blood, flesh and pain. As long as snakes are tortured and mutilated for the personal pleasure of selfish keepers, responsible people will continue to protest.

"so i think a lot of people purchasing venomoids arent so much looking for the typical concept of a "pet" (something to handle and get a sense of comradary from) but are simply seeking to be in the presence of an evolutionary masterpiece and enjoy the challenge and satisfaction of providing that animal a non-hostile environment to live out its days."

In short, it's still about selfish gratification. People who must hurt and mutilate an animal before keeping it would be well advised to take a visit to the zoo instead, where they can enjoy viewing healthy animals that are being kept properly and humanely.

Again, let me re-iterate that I am not a hot keeper. I am a lover of nature and animals, and venomous snakes and their story of evolution fascinates me. I have read many of Ms TT's posts on this forum and it is very easy to see that she is a caring educated handler/keeper/caregiver of these animals. There is no ego here, just someone who is sharing their knowledge to educate others.

As for this ongoing debate, mutilating ANY animal, be it docking a dogs tail, de-clawing a cat, or removing venom glands from a venomous reptile is ethically and morally wrong. Period. No amount of rationalizing by people is going to change the bottom line. No amount of arguing will make something that is morally and ethically wrong a right. I've read all the arguments here for and against voids. I am not convinced. There is no medical benefit as far as what I've read here, in fact the opposite may be true. This isn't a procedure for the good of the animal, it is a procedure for the good of the owner.

As for those of you who alluded to the fact that I have no business stating my opinion because I don't keep venomous snakes: as a concerned individual who cares for all creatures, I beg to differ with you.

Both seem synonymous with conversations on venomoids.
My humble opinion is that properly performed surgery is neither and should be called just that "properly performed surgery".
Please save the emotive terms for the animal libbers and other "anti's".
Anyway I have to go now as I am seeing a local vet who has worked with me in terms of operations here (preparations, materials, etc) and him and his staff thought the operation as performed here in Australia was eminently sensible and likened it to desexing a dog or trimming it's claws.
Alteration yes, minor, yes, unnatural in the strictest sense, yes as well, and to the animal's long term benefit in it's captive man-made and unnatural environment, yes.

I understand what you are saying. This subject is obviously one that brings to the surface some very strong emotions.

Let me just say this then: I have read your rationale for the procedure and respectfully disagree with your view on all points.

No hard feelings.