Reptile & Amphibian Forums

People, I've read through a load of the threads below and will throw my 2 cents into the "fire" and watch the flames engulf me again.
In terms of myself, it seems there are some who agree with most I write and then the few noisy ones who attack anything I say and do and for them, frankly I can't change that, so I won't lose too much sleep.
Here goes…
There seems to be an intolerance of dissent or opinion on this list by some, other than of people with like opinions. A couple of correspondents say they don't free handle and attack all who do. The same goes for venomoids. Is it not possible for us to agree to disagree and merely discuss actual facts and/or not flame those who have different opinions?
I've been painted as "pro venomoid", which I am not exclusively. I merely believe it is a practice which has it's time and place and one which at other times doesn't. Same I suppose for keeping venomous snakes or even driving cars.
Some people simply shouldn't do either!
For others it seems OK.
In terms of my "pro venomoid" stance, I will qualify my views in as much as while some months ago I found the likely use of the practice to be limited, I have now formed the view that it's ultimate application will be fairly wide due to the simplicity of the procedure as now refined, including it's risk free nature if done properly and due to the advantages to the snake itself and management of them by the keeper.
This has nothing to do with the common "ego" style arguments, which I think will decline in coming years as the "elitism" of venomous snakes also declines.
It is clear that some persons see keeping hot snakes as their badge of honour and one not to be shared with too many others. I disagree.
I have been keeping hots for more than 30 years which puts me well ahead of most on this exclusive and (sometimes elitist) list and was unusual in that here in Australia in the 1970's I was the lone voice advocating widespread private keeping of reptiles, which at the time was effectively banned, saved for scientific permits to academics, of which I was one at the time (hence I was even then, one of the "elite".
Persons in Australia new to herpetology find it hard to fathom that I had to fight so hard for rights now taken for granted (see the "Smuggled" books for details).
Sure some people will get venomous or venomoid for the wrong reasons, but we have that already and no one has or can stop that. But yes, we can try to stop the worst.
In terms of intolerance, I don't have the intestinal fortitude to routinely free handle hot snakes but happily free-handle venomoids. However I cannot condemn those who do handle hots regularly, including Scott Eipper who candidly posted this fact lower on the forum and got flamed for doing so.
For the record for the person who flamed Scott, I will make some points here.
He was free handling hots long before Steve Irwin lurched onto the Australian herp scene in the mid 1990's. That Scott hasn't been killed by any of his free-handled Taipans (he's got three), Adders (heaps), Eastern Browns (lots) and the like (heaps) indicates that he is well able to pick his mark and to that extent probably has a greater feel and affinity for his snakes than most others on this forum.
Now, in terms of handling with hooks, tongs, hook and tail and so on, yes these are adequate and snakes can be kept quite OK like this for years BUT the fact is that nothing is as good for the snake as "free handling" (ignoring bite risk).
It is for that reason most of us don't use hooks and tongs for pythons and harmless colubrids. That I might add is a good ad for venomoids.
I also await a few more guesses as to the status of the Death Adder pictured in the thread below from the anti-venomoiders in particular, especially as the snake is one of mine and it's been repeatedly posted that I am the snake butcher from hell (or to that effect), so surely it'd be easy to tell one way or other.
Also, in terms of the posts re venom being needed for digestion of venomous snakes I say, crapples…
No one has yet produced a single study or hard evidence to show the advantage of venom to digestion versus none in said snakes, but I have hard evidence of NO DIFFERENCE in elapids of several genera.
Now sure, the other snakes have different venoms (e.g. Crotalids), but even when the venomous ones are being fed dead food (as in captivity), the use of venom is already essentially nil (as it is blood transmitted).
Sure books claim venom is needed for digestion, but that is merely a widely repeated assumption (like the flat earth theory) that until now, no one has actually tested (which is what I said in my March venomoid paper).
Now I've got to go and record the feeding for tonight (while typing this).
5 Venomoid Tiger snakes each ate several lumps of Kangaroo meat (yes just dropped in the cage as a bundle and lapped up),
A massive female venomoid Death Adder ate earlier and all were of about a dozen snakes that did educational shows today running a total of 12 hours for which the snakes took in their stride (snakes did 5 days of shows in last 7).
These were the only snakes offered food, but another venomoid pair are full of ova (now why would I have "butchered" such valuable snakes and put them at risk if I had doubts about a procedure).
Four naturally venomoid pythons got dead mice (wow lucky!).
Oh and the only live rodent to come here in the last few years was one used to test the venomoids some time after they all got the "snip". … The rodent lived!
PS Sometimes during shows the venomoids are in fact hooked and tailed if I do not intend disclosing their state to the audience (usually I do - in which case they are free-handled) - however they are ALWAYS free handled at home in their day to day management as it'd be stupid not to!
All the best

It becomes more clear every time you post that there is seriously something not right in that head of yours.... You really have no credit what so ever with me and I am 100% sure I am not alone.... It does not matter how many "papers" you write..... Every thing I have ever read of yours was absolute trash.....

On the freehandling of pythons and other non venomous, harmless snakes..... They are not freehandle because its better for them.... They are not handled with hooks because there is no reason to do so.... They are HARMLESS..... You can pick up a ball python or kingsnake without being killed.....

The only things I can aggree with you on is not everyone should own venomous and there has been no solid proof that venom is needed for digestion.... But it is obvious how it can aid in digestion especially in vipers....
Other than those two things you are clueless.....

"It is clear that some persons see keeping hot snakes as their badge of honour and one not to be shared with too many others. I disagree."

All that "badge of honor" stuff is a bit silly in my opinion. I'm a very ordinary middle aged lady with glasses and bad knees. I don't find anything difficult about working with venomous snakes, and I don't think anyone else should either.

It's not about your courage or strength or speed, it's a set of learned professional skills that anyone can master if they take the time. Showmen and daredevils like to spread the myth that it is difficult and dangerous, but it is not. Working with venomous snakes safely requires no more than simple common sense, a good education and appropriate safety tools. A venomous snake keeper is no more elite or special than a plumber or an electrician, and we generally make less money.

I really admire keepers who can maintain snakes under good enough husbandry conditions that they practically glow with good health and breed fine strong offspring. Those are the keepers who deserve our respect and admiration. Not carnival stuntmen who show off how cool they are by annoying some poor stressed venomous snakes. Whether you are keeping corn snakes or cobras, the real "badge of honor" is keeping them fit and healthy and well cared for with good husbandry skills.

"Now, in terms of handling with hooks, tongs, hook and tail and so on, yes these are adequate and snakes can be kept quite OK like this for years BUT the fact is that nothing is as good for the snake as "free handling" (ignoring bite risk)."

I disagree. Moving a snake routinely for cage cleaning can be accomplished in a completely hands-off manner that does not stress the animal at all, using trap boxes or cage divisions. Using one hand to support the snake's body and a hook to direct its head is also a gentle and effective way to move an animal without actual restraint.

I don't know how you do hooking and tailing, but in my facility this is a very gentle and flexible technique that involves open handed midbody support rather than holding the tail in a deathgrip. The snake is supported and gently slowed down rather than being gripped too tightly, and the position of hand and hook changes as the animal moves. It is a good deal like freehandling, except that the hook acts like a second open hand that supports and directs the neck. There is no effective difference to the snake whether the second "hand" closest to its head is made of flesh or metal. Some heavy bodied snakes do require broader, flatter hooks for better support and comfort. These broader hooks have the same effect as an open palm for giving good body support.

"I also await a few more guesses as to the status of the Death Adder pictured in the thread below from the anti-venomoiders in particular, especially as the snake is one of mine and it's been repeatedly posted that I am the snake butcher from hell (or to that effect), so surely it'd be easy to tell one way or other."

You have stated that you use no anesthesia or pain medications whatsoever in your amateur surgical procedures. Even if you know your anatomy well enough to remove the venom gland structures without leaving scars that are visible on the outside, this does not mitigate the horror or the illegality of cutting up fully conscious and feeling animals that are too cold to move.

"Also, in terms of the posts re venom being needed for digestion of venomous snakes I say, crapples… "

Very professional summary there. *cough*

The jury is still out on the more subtle effects of snakes not getting to use venom in digestion, but there are no obvious problems with a captive animal not envenomating its prey. Since most captive venomous snakes are fed frozen/thawed prey in any case, venom is not really relevant to a captive animal's feeding.

Likewise, you aren't currently using your appendix. May I come over and put you in the refrigerator for awhile before carving it out with no anesthesia? I don't have a medical license but I've read some books on anatomy. The fact that you don't need it to survive makes it okay for me to strap you down and chop it out of you while you're fully conscious but paralyzed.

"5 Venomoid Tiger snakes each ate several lumps of Kangaroo meat (yes just dropped in the cage as a bundle and lapped up)"

It's obvious that you don't read any veterinary literature, so I'll summarize for you. Feeding muscle meat alone to carnivorous reptiles leads to malnutrition. Spend a few extra coins and buy them proper food, please.

Lets here it for the "middle aged woman with bad knees"! Bravo
You said it all maam and with great tact; I'd love to view your facilities sometime, it sounds like your on the ball.

Now if the rumours are true and this Mr. does the venomoid procedure himself...'
Where's the ASPCA? Can't they tract the internet or something and find out where this guy lives?

Ps, while reading the initial post, I just agreed to disagree; it was all good until I found out you do it yourself (rumour or not?)
Ian Animal Health Technologist

Hello Rayhoser, sorry for calling you MR. earlier, I forgot your screen name.
After reading all of your posts it does seem that you have lots of experience.
I must apologize as I don't know you but it is on my nerves the thought of you performing the adenectomy yourself.
I guess I should ask if you are a veterinarian. Are you?
The only exception to a vet performing a procedure like this would be in a laboratory environment under the guidiance of a veterinarian and a ethics commitee. For those reading whom do not know, an ethics commitee is used to evaluate lab procedures and the methods of their conduct; from anesthesia used to recovery times, and method of skin closure. This keeps methods current, and scientists seeing the big picture.
After all, for all I know you are emailing from your lab station right now!?!
All in all, and opinion's stated, I am against removing the venom glands from snakes. We disagree.
It happens. If you are a vet, good on ya I guess, if not (or the one exception) then of course you deserve all the ranting and "flaming" that this forum can provide.

Just curious as I did some research here in the last year and several folks said that a certain percentage of these operations reverse themselves in time... Scary thought and totally nullifies the "100% safe" ability to freehandle the altered animals. If even 1% regenerates and is not caught you're just asking for some kid who's handling daddy's "safe" Bitis, Naja, etc... to get killed. I don't keep hots (someday perhaps) and I'm not totally opposed to Venomoids either. I do however think that one of the top concerns should be the actual percentage of spontaneous reversals that are seen so perhaps the market (public) is a bit more informed of how "safe" the snakes actually are.
-----
Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

It is (the issue) and there have been unconfirmed reports detailing exactly what you state - regeneration of glands.
So here's the results from here to give you an idea of how we have dealt with it.
In our cases the glands and duct have been removed - the whole apparatus and in this case there is definitely NO REGENERATION.
If the operation is done properly this will ALWAYS be the case.
BUT in botch jobs that remove only part of the apparatus it is possible that regeneration in part may occur (or scar tissue), either way leading to the ability to envenomate.
The solutions to the issue are
1/ Do operations properly e.g. using methods described in Hoser (2004), AND
2/ Regularly test all operated on snakes for signs of regeneration.
Our snakes fit both above and there has definitely been NO EVIDENCE of regeneration of venom or ability to envenomate in nearly a year of operation for all 17 odd venomoid snakes.
The other half of the "Hots" here are still virgin (unvenomoid) and besides their venomousness look and act the same.
Finally, you have made a good point re potential regeneration which should be watched (noting the newness of the (newest)procedure in terms of herpetology as a whole) and for that reason our ops have been photographed in detail so that if regeneration does occur in any way (none yet) we can check this against exactly what was removed.
CHEERS

Actually the adenectomy (removal of the venom glands) cannot be reversed. It never has and never will. The Ductectomy however has the possiblity to regenerate. See the reason there were regenerations after a successfull ductectomy is due to the fact that either A) The sutures were not tied right B) The guy doing the surgery didnt cut then carterize the ducts C) the guy completly missed the duct and sutured muscle tissue. These are the only reasons a venomoid surgery can be reversed. Which also leads me to the next point. People who have no experience in vetranary surgery should operate on animals.

To gypsyking
you have more-or less summed up my views on these aspects of the topic.
Regeneration of removed gland and duct not possible (or at least no evidence of it yet).
Excluding your typos, I think you have a good handle on this aspect. Also I think (assume) you meant to insert the word "not" in your last sentence, which somehow fell out asd you typed. A human error in the world of rapid posting. But assuming the error, I agree that no one without proper experience should attempt such an op (venomoid) which is EXACTLY as I said in my much flamed paper last March.
Also I liked your above post because it wasn't flaming anyone.
Cheers.

Regeneration or more accurately re-fissuring does happen even when the ducts are completely cauterized or ligated or removed. One very prominent and well published reptile specialist veterinarian has stated in lecture that eventual re-fissuring would not be an uncommon or unexpected outcome in his experience.

True regeneration of the gland after a fully competent removal would be extremely rare. However the key words here are "fully competent removal". The gland in elapids goes right to the base of the fang and is tricky to remove completely. If you miss even a scrap of gland tissue, the snake can still envenomate.

The number of licensed veterinarians in the world who are experienced and competent at venomoid surgery is not very large. The number of amateur garage hacks illegally butchering snakes for profit and selling them as venomoids to collectors is unfortunately much larger. I would personally not care to risk freehandling a "venomoid" snake. It might surprise you in an unpleasant way.

The previous correspondent keeps harping back to risks and bad jobs on snakes and so on.
To save argument, let's assume these happen and are condemned by all on this forum (I suppose like the Rattlesnake roundups ... collection for wrong reasons).
Assuming for a moment that a venomoid job has been done by the best methods and person that exists and all the apparatus is removed save for the part within the bone (near fang).
One could reasonably expect (in practice) no regeneration of venom capacity and this is what has been seen in 17 out of 17 ops here in Australia.
Now in partial agreement with MsTT, I must say, that caution and common sense MUST apply. Nothing should be taken for granted.
Hence all operated on snakes are regularly tested for any regeneration and so far none have showed any signs of it.
We assume that there may be thickening from scar tissue or muscle development (to replace the rod-like glands), but so far nothing of major importance seen.
If and when there is regeneration of venom capacity in these "fixed" snakes, it would certainly be worthy of wide dissemination and I'd put it in a paper.
But for MsTT to make claims that this is a serious issue detracting from the venomoid operation, is misleading. So far it has been a non-issue.
(Other arguments against venomoid operations do remain, but not the regeneration one in the context of above).
Another related issue and one that again is resolved by common sense is the venom capacity immediately after the venomoid operation.
One must reasonably assume residual venom in the fang, mouth and so on and hence the snake must still be assumed to be venomous for some time after the operation.
How long exactly?
I don't know.
BUT in tests 14 days after the operation we found no evidence of venom capacity (or active venom) in 17 snakes. Clearly no venomoid snake should be free handled (unless deemed safe in terms of non-biting) until after it has been tested not to be capable of envenomation.
Let common sense prevail!
Cheers

when you say let common sense prevail. IT DOES NOT APPLY WHEN YOU HAVE UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE PERFORMING SURGERIES ON SNAKES FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING MONEY!

I did accidently leave out the "not" sorry bout that. Iwas in a hurry.

Good arguments, I agree mate. Self ordained herptile purist snobs get on my nerves too. It's not an exact science folks, it's an art! Hey maybe I should patent that comment...