Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click here for Dragon Serpents

Darn it all. I think I am doing something wrong already.

pythonmomma Aug 11, 2004 10:42 PM

Dan had his daily soak tonight to go to the bathroom and for humidity and well, yeah I gotta talk about poop, his stool was almost whole plant matter. Like he didn't get the greens chewed and digested right. He has been eating really well since I got him. He was on Rep-Cal pellets before I got him. This is the first problem I have had. I tear the greens into pieces no bigger then the space between his eyes. I use a potato peeler to make pieces of squash and sweet potato for him. I quarter grapes and halve berries. I sprinkle his food with calcium and vitamins and he gets ATLEAST 1 hour in sun light everyday. I don't know. I have had fecals and blood tests and exrays and all that stuff done. He is COMPLETELZY healthy but the poop worries me. He has a UVB and heat lamp in his enclosure to. I don't know if any of you can help.

I am going to take him to the vet if it is still like that tomorrow.

Amanda

ALSO, how long ON AVERAGE do you guys get greems to last in your fridge? I have mine in servin' savers. I am getting about 3 weeks with them. Thanks for ANY help.

Replies (17)

riiotgrrl Aug 11, 2004 10:52 PM

Sounds like he may not have enough heat to digest his food properly. His basking spot should be near 95*, and there should be a spot for basking big enough so the platform can absorb the heat. This belly heat will help him digest better. Other wist you may need a bacteria supplement such as benabac....thats all i got. good luck.

-----
"i wasn't born with enough middle fingers"

1.0 ball python- Azazel
1.0 columbian boa- Brooklyn
1.0 red blood python-Hiss
1.0 peach phase thayeri-Sancho
0.1 creamsicle corn- Pandora
0.1 partial stripe ghost corn- Raven
1.1 hognose- Pricilla and Odd
0.1 russian tortoise- Manja
0.1.1 leos- Boji and Kodama
0.1 beardie- Indie
1.0 BTS- Griffon
0.1 Iggy- Sunny
0.0.2 Red american toadlets with 0.0.7 legs total (er, i have one w/3....)
0.0.1 gray tree frog toadlet
0.0.6 land snails
0.0.2 millipedes of unknown species from TN
0.0.1 spotted slug
5.3 bettas
0.1 pacific parrolet- Mishka
1.1 cats- Cairo and Oberon
2.3 ratties Rizzo, Bounce, Bree, Blitzkreig, and Zelda

pythonmomma Aug 11, 2004 10:54 PM

His basking area is 93-98 all day, I use an infared at night. He surface is that warm, so the air is a little cooler, but I keep my house at 85 all the time, so not that much. I don't know, I guess I go to the vet if it is like that again tomorrow.

bexley Aug 12, 2004 07:55 AM

It could take him some time to get used to the new diet as well. I had the same problem with Tempest, and now he can digest his food no problem. I'd suggest giving him Rep-Cal pellets as well as greens so you know he's getting the nutrition he needs, and just be patient! Maybe turn the heat up a bit for him as well, or get a large flat rock to go under his basking lamp so he gets even heat under his belly. I use a flat piece of river rock under my basking lamp, Tempest loves it!

girlzilla Aug 12, 2004 07:07 AM

Try a heating pad on low for belly heat at night, maybe.

About salad, for me it generally lasts about a week before it smells unsweet and not fresh. That's generally the point where Bud will stop eating it, and I don't blame him. You know how salad can smell after a while, not like something I'd like to eat, either!

I do freeze it for emergencies. Also when I travel I take a frozen container of salad and that way by the time I get where I'm going, it's merely thawed, not gone bad.

But the funny thing about frozen salad is that it gets mushy after just a few days, and again, Bud won't eat it. He'll actually eat around, and if possible, under it, eating all the greens and leaving a lump of salad to bake under the heat lights...

I think he's really picky though. Maybe other people have a different experience. I'll have to try servin' savers.

The appearance of the poop may also have to do with what kind of green you're feeding him this week. Is it some kind of chard or bok choy? Sometimes those can be "stringy".

Alika Aug 12, 2004 09:47 AM

Not to start an argument, but belly heat isn't a good way to warm an iguana. In the wild, they warm themselves with the air temperature, not on warm rocks or surfaces. In "Iguanas for Dummies" MK suggest that no under surface or belly heat be used - including not only hot rocks, but under tank heating pads.

I think it's still a matter of opinion, since (besides hot rocks) nobody has proved that belly heat is a negative thing... but I thought I should probably point that out.

Alika

bexley Aug 12, 2004 06:09 PM

What you want to avoid is something that can develop hot spots, as reptiles have a very poor sense of hot and cold on their skin, they sense temperature as an overall body thing. Rocks that retain heat, like the large river rock I use under his basking lamp, can be very beneficial. Not to mention, Tempest loves it! Thats why you see wild reptiles basking on rocks n such all the time. Heat rocks, or pads that can cause spot-heat or uneven heating is dangerous, specially designed under-the-tank heaters for snakes can be fantastic if used properly, and items to hold heat under the basking lamp so they get heat even more evenly are beneficial as well.

Alika Aug 12, 2004 08:36 PM

That's the thing, though... wild iguanas DON'T bask on rocks. Other reptiles do, I'm sure, but iguanas spend 99% of their time in the trees.

MK has a whole spill about it in her book. It's conveniently packed away in a box (we're moving next week). But I figured the same information would be on her website, and I found this for you:

http://www.anapsid.org/hotrock.html

It discusses hotrocks, mostly, but the concerns are not just about them malfunctioning, but about the heat being localized on one spot of the body instead of the surrounding air. It's not just talking about burns... it's the stuff that goes on inside where we can't really see.

Again, most of this is theories, but it makes sense to me. Why would an arboreal lizard be adapted to receive heat from direct contact with warm objects? It just doesn't make sense. I agree with MK on this one... devices that heat the air are much better than ones that provide contact heat.

Sorry again to argue and contradict, but this is one of the newer things I've been learning. Before, I did think contact heat made sense. I thought you might like to read the articles, if you haven't already.

No hard feelings,

Alika

bexley Aug 12, 2004 09:18 PM

I'm not talking about a hot rock, they are the most useless things for any reptile. I'm talking about a large, flat piece of river rock that absorbs the heat from the basking lamp, and allows for a much more even temperature grade in that area, both from above and below. An ig would naturally have this, instead of a cold shelf, in the wild basking in a tree top. As for iguanas not basking, I've seen many photos to the contrary. Also, you may wish to refer to your Hatfield for more information on the subject.

alika Aug 12, 2004 09:36 PM

I know what you were talking about. I read your post. Did you read mine? It talked about iguanas absorbing heat from direct contact with a warm object rather than the air itself. As I said in my other post, it I know the link was more or less about hotrocks, but there was other information in there about warm contact surfaces. What does it matter if it's a rock that's plugged into a wall or a rock that's warmed from a lamp? It is still a hot rock, and the ig still can't feel very well from it's belly how warm it's getting. I understand the malfunctioning of hot rocks, but a rock that is warmed from a lamp can get very warm, too.

I'm not saying your methods are bad or wrong, I'm just offering another point of view. As I've said before, this is more a matter of opinion than anything else.

Also as I've said before, all my books (my iguana books included) are packed in boxes awaiting our out-of-state move next week. So, unfortunately, I can't refer to my Hatfield. However, I am interested to hear that iguanas spend more time on the ground basking on rocks than I previously thought? All my research thus far has indicated that they spend almost all of their time in trees, coming down only to reproduce and rarely to drink and defecate (defecating primarily by hanging their butts off tree branches over a water source). Since I can't refer to my books, perhaps there is a website or article that you can point me to? I am happy to explore all the avenues on this, since I am very interested in their wild habits. And I'm more than willing to back down from my belief about warm contact surfaces if I find that they spend a lot of time doing this in the wild.

Thanks for having this discussion with me. It's been very interesting.

Alika

alika Aug 12, 2004 10:12 PM

To add to my previous post, I'm only comparing your warm rock to a hot rock in the loosest way. Of course electric rocks are far more dangerous. In fact, I'm not calling your warm rock dangerous at all. It's occured to me that if I thought someone was saying I was practicing dangerous herp keeping methods, I'd be offended and on the defence. I really want to emphasize that I'm not trying to offend you or afront your methods - for all I know, I'm way off base and what you're doing is the very very best methods available in herp care now. I'm just trying to offer another perspective and opinion.

I don't think I've done a very good job of explaining myself in this discussion. I know there are benefits to contact heat, as well. I just think a system based solely on ambient basking are ultimately better.

I apologize for the vagueness of my posts.

Alika

Lucien Aug 13, 2004 12:06 AM

While Iguanas are mostly arboreal... The branches they bask in will usually be in full sunlight. The branches themselves can absorb heat and spread it out along the underside of the body providing "belly heat".They will also seek out vertical rock faces... large rocks... or even man made rock or metal surfaces to bask on. You see many iguana's basking on the sand or on the pavement to soak up that surface heat as well as what surrounds them in air temps when you go to somewhere in Florida where they're prevalent.
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 0.0.3 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystique))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

alika Aug 13, 2004 09:46 AM

With all due respect, live tree branches absorb and retain heat very very differently than rocks and minerals. While it's true that they do absorb some, and do become somewhat warm, it's not going to become much warmer than the surrounding air. The iguana will still heat evenly. The biggest issue here is that the belly shouldn't be warmed faster or to a higher degree than the back, as stated in the articles I posted earlier. Not to mention that you can get burned by touching a tree. And you can't prevent the ambient temperature from warming other surfaces... that's a given... but you can control which surfaces are in the enclosure to warm in the first place. I'm just trying to suggest that rocks, with the potential to heat up to high temperatures and retain warmth very very easily, might not be the best choice.

While I can repsect that feral iguanas in Florida may bask on flat rocks and sand, asphalt and metal roofs, this is hardly the norm. I don't think we can compare how a species should be getting it's warmth to feral populations. Iguanas survive in Florida because the humidity and temperature meet their needs. Florida is much more densely populated than, say, the middle of a rainforest in Belize. And anyone who has walked barefoot on a beach in the middle of a summer day knows how dangerously hot the sand can get... let alone the asphalt, roofs, and rocks. Temperatures that high on a surface are comparable to a malfunctioning heat rock, and I don't think that's something any of us would purposely expose our igs to. So why do they bask in these areas? Well, why do they lie on hot rocks until their insides cook and their skin burns?

I think in the next 10 or 20 years we'll start to see a slow evolution in the feral iguanas living in the southern US. I've never been to Florida, but I'm not aware of any tropical rainforests down there. If green iguanas are evolved to live in the trees in the rainforests, they'll have to evolve differently to live on the ground in urban Florida. No matter how well they seem to be doing now, they do better in their native homes. If you had to release your iguana(s) into the wild right now, would you prefer to do it in, say, Costa Rica, or Florida?

So let's talk about their natural environment. Rainforests consist of huge trees that create a tightly woven canopy that lets in very little light. If you live at the bottom of that canopy, it's warm and it's humid, but there is little to no direct sunlight - depending on the age and type of rainforest you're in. In an older rainforest, there is very little ground cover because the plants can't get enough light to grow. The higher in the trees you go, the more natural sunlight you get. There's no asphalt or beach sand, and no metal roofs to sit out in direct sunlight all day and absorb the sun. In the areas that are populated by people, there's little development and these things don't really exist, anyhow - not in great numbers, anyway. You just don't go to the rainforest (or watch a nature show) and see groups of iguanas lying around on rocks on the rainforest floor. They're up in the trees trying to get closer to the sunlight, and eating and basking and doing iguana things.

So maybe iguanas evolved as tree dwellers because, in their environment, it's the best way to get close to the sun. And for folivores, the best pickings are in the trees. It just doesn't make sense to come down for any reason other than to lay eggs.

I can appreciate the rock cliff climbers argument, though. I think it would be an amusing sight to see... a "Mission Impossible" iguana scaling an impassable rock cliff Do you, by any chance, have a picture?

While other reptiles may greatly benefit from contact heat, it's important to recognize that most other reptiles, with the exception of a few more arboreal lizards and snakes (tree boas, anoles, etc.) are terrestial in nature. I still think that iguanas can benefit most from an environment that is based *mostly* (I can't say soley, since, as you said, you can't prevent ambient heat from heating surfaces-I just don't think this should be done on purpose) on ambient heat.

I think it's important that their bodies are allowed to heat evenly. If the temperature of a surface they're lying on is greater than the ambient temperature, their bellies will heat up faster than their backs. If the temperature varies greatly, their bellies will heat up much faster than their backs. That just doesn't seem right...

Of course I understand that our iguanas are not in the wild and there's a whole lot of things we just can't provide for them. So maybe comparing iguana keeping to the life of an indemic, wild iguana is unfair and, ultimately, null and void as discussion material.

As a side note, I'm going to clarify, of course, that I'm talking about green iguanas only. I know desert iguanas bask on rocks, as do marine iguanas and other species.

Regards,

Alika

alika Aug 13, 2004 09:47 AM

That should be you "can't" get burned from touching a tree, in my first paragraph.

Lucien Aug 14, 2004 10:59 AM

The only time such areas as I'm referring to would get hot enough to become any kind of danger to an Iguana is at mid day when the sun was at its most intense. If you look at the basking habits of iguanas and other lizards you find that they bask in the morning to warm up...then move off to feed... keep in a quiet shaded place through the hottest part of the day and move out in the late afternoon to early evening to take advantage of the last heat of the day and to rest on rocks or sand still warm from the afternoon sun which will be warmer than the air surrounding them. I've been high up in trees before and with a canopy area where the iguana's would choose to bask on the top of the trees where they got the most direct sunlight it can be quite warm even a couple hours after the sun came up..Leaves and branches absorb and distribute heat just like any other surface and yes it can be hot enough on a wood surface to be somewhat painful to us... Tell my hand that it can't when I got "sunburned" (first degree burn) picking up a board that had been laying in full sunlight all day on one of the hottest days of the year...To understand why belly heat would be more advantageous than ambient heat you really do have to understand the way an iguana's digestive system works. Its gut is loaded with beneficial bacteria and digestive enzymes.. but both these things are designed to work at a specific temperature...usually the iguana's body should be able to reach an optimum temp of between 90 and 95 degrees and that means its entire body. This stimulates more digestive acids and enzymes to be produced and brings the gut flora into play as well..The heat stimulates the metabolism. To be able to reach that temp.. the temps it basks in have to be between 95 and 105 degrees. They naturally seek out spots where heat will spread out evenly beneath them because its easier to warm their gut that way and provide for digestion of their food. I know that iguana's have evolved to benefit from radiant heat sources which are usually from above...like the sun.. however a radiant heat source.. like a rock or flat branch thats evenly heated and providing radiant heat from underneath can only be beneficial in raising its tempe to the proper level. When speaking of basking, you're inevitably discussing both the air temp and the surface temp they're resting on. The surface temp will ALWAYS be higher than the air temp surrounding them no matter what material they're laying on (Unless its ice but you get the point) Most of the time, despite the one's I've seen hanging on rock faces in full sunlight, iguana's dislike vertical basking and prefer flat horizontal shelves or canopy flats.

Regardless of whether either of us is right or not.. Heat rocks are bad.. but slate or tile placed under a basking spot to provide evenly distributed heat all around the iguana isn't harmful as long as temps are monitored and cooler spots are provided.
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
3.5.3 Leopard geckos (2.0 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 0.1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short), 1.0 Rainwater Albino (Mycah), 0.4 Poss. Het. Albino (Annika, Lace, Rain and Aris) and 0.0.3 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice, Malfeas, and Mystique))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
3 cats (Ashe, Sahara and Hercules)
6 Fish (4 Red Danios, 1 Cardinal Fish, and 1 Tiger Barb)
8 Ramshorn snails
"And a Partridge in a Pear Tree!"

JacksonsChamKeep Aug 20, 2004 06:44 AM

First of all there is no need to become passive agressive (Alika). Secondly, it makes no difference whether you think the conditions and baskings spots are better in Costa Rica than in Florida. If you look at the facts, the Iguanas are healthy and thriving in both environments. If common sense is put it to play, this would mean that having a heatable substance for a perch in a basking spot is fine. I would recommend using a porous rock, such as Lava rock for this purpose. All this talk about only air temperature heat being proper,is groundless and unproven study after study. Heat is heat, and whether it is coming from below or above it serves the same purpose. To raise the body temperature and allow the digestive enzymes to work at a faster rate, thus allowing proper digestion. The main thing to keep in mind is that the surface touching the iguana is at a reasonable temperature. Tree branches in the jungle heat up just like a rock does, but the tree branch stays at a safe temperature, because it does not retain the heat as well as a rock. If the tempature of the substance is warm and not hot, the iguana will benefit from the heat, without the risk of injury.

sincerely,
Craig

Roger van Couwen Aug 12, 2004 10:05 AM

...it's not necessarily your doing. It can be a gut parasite or bad bacteria that are irritating the gut causing a fast transit of the food. Or, for some reason, his beneficial bacteria may be depleted.

Try to take a fresh poop sample to your vet. Also, your iguana vet might have a supply of beneficial gut bacterai for birds, which can be used for your ig.

Roger

pythonmomma Aug 12, 2004 10:10 AM

I have had a fecal done 3 times since I have owned him. He has also had blood tests done for calcium, phosopurus(sp) and exrays done for bone depletion. I do not feed him Chard or Bok Choy. The surface in his basking area stays 94-98 all day. The beneficial bacteria maybe the problem. I will let you know what happens when he has his bath tonight.

Amanda

Site Tools