Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My superintendant came to my door the other day...telling me she needed to talk to me "about my pets".
She then proceeded to "inform" me about the city bylaw that restricts exotic pets ( I knew about the bylaw already, but it doesn't apply to me due to the type and size of lizards I have).
No venomous pets, no more than two of any species, no greater than two feet long...etc, etc. Including a request that I not allow any of the neighbours, or their children to handle my lizards.
What brought this on...well, apparently we have had new tenants move into our complex. They have no less than 7 snakes, and rumour has it the number is actually greater than 20.
A week or so ago, they had one of their fellows outside for some sun, a neighbour boy (he's 9) and HIS mother went over to check out the snake. He was holding it, and the owners were doing thier "public service" bit, much the same as we all do...explaining why the snake makes a good pet, and that they really aren't scarey animals, etc. WELL...some OTHER kids mother saw this 9 year old child holding the snake, and FREAKED OUT!!! She went to the super, and complained...she went to the property management company and complained, she went to the CITY and complained...because of this, the owners now have to get rid of all of their snakes, except two, which must be under 2 feet long.
First off, it wasn't HER kid holding the snake, and the mother of the child that was holding it, was right there, and had no issue with it.
Secondly, the HUGE issue I have is...since our city has a bylaw saying no reptiles over two feet long...HOW can pet shops be allowed to sell these animals as babies????
They want us to be responsible pet owners...license out pets, vaccinate our pets, leash our pets...oh...and by the way...get RID of your REPTILES when they reach two feet!!!
It's craziness I say! Just WHERE are these iguanas, monitors, snakes etc supposed to go???
My superintendant is not ANTI reptile! In fact she told me herself she would rather have snakes and lizards as her tenants pets, since they don't chew the baseboards, piss on the carpets, poop on the lawns, bark all day and night!
She just wanted to let me know to be careful, that we have a neighbour that wants the herps out of the neighbourhood, due to her little phobia.

I was at the pet shop where I rescued Dill, they have a WHACK of new lizards...baby iguanas, tegus, savannah monitors, water monitors...I believe the majority, if not all of those grow to more than two feet long. When I asked the pet shop guy about it...he said..."what bylaw?", "I dont know nothin' about no bylaw". He was being sarcastic of course, and described the bylaw as bulls***. He says he doesn't tell his customers about it, and IF they know about it, he tells them to break the law as they see fit...if an animal control officer comes to your door...LIE! If they MAKE you get rid of the animals, then take them to a friends until they do their inspection, and then bring them back.

I just dont' get it. The city is teaching irreasponsible pet ownership,they bit** and whine about all the unwanted cats and dogs, because when they're no longer kittens and puppies, and no longer "cute" anymore people get rid of them...but yet the city is enforcing a law that causes much loved reptile family members to be given up when they are no longer babies.
The pet shop is teaching irresponsible pet ownership by not informing customers of the potential that they may invest tons of time and money only to have some phobic, "Mrs. Kravitz" type neighbour rat them out to the city, and be forced to say goodbye to their "babies".

It's craziness! It's unfair, and unjust. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people that take on a reptile as a pet invest some much more time and money caring for thier animals than the average cat and dog owners!!
Just go look at the cat and dog forums on here...compare them to even just THIS forum. It's all cutesy poo, baby talk, "meow chat" kind of stuff...with some seriousness thrown in...whereas in here, we talk about health issues, and how to's, with a little cutesy poo stuff thrown in for a laugh, or to lighten the mood.
(Don't get me wrong...I know they love their pets too, and would walk on broken glass for them!!!)

Anyway...I need to stop ranting!! I'm just disgusted by the going's on in my neighbourhood lately!!
Whatever happened to live, and let live????
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Kim

Then they usually use irrational behavior to protect themselves from their fears. Lets face it how many reptiles actually attack children on a daily basis. How many dogs attack children on a daily basis. (actually I like dogs)
Did you know that more people die from pig attacks than shark attacks yearly, but do you see people afraid to go out because a pig might attack them. You do see people who won't go swimming at a beach because they are sure a shark is going to eat them alive. Actually how many people eat sharks? Those sharks should be terrified of us. I wonder if they see movies called "HANDS".
Also if you are ever asked by your homeowners insurance if you own an exotic pet whether it be a bird, reptile, ect. If you answer yes they can deny you coverage.
It's funny you can't have a reptile in a cage but you can keep a loaded gun in your dresser. Combine that with the fact that if someone breaks in your home and you shoot and injure them they can actually sue you. But they don't ask you do you own a gun and deny you coverage.
Everything goes back to fear and prejudice.

I think anson hit it right on the head. People see a large lizard, and they think of a dragon or something along those lines. They see a large snake, and they think of all the horror stories about anacondas killing and eating humans.

It's like Iguanas, for example. A lot of people see them and think "how can you consider a 6-foot REPTILE to be a pet, let alone a loved member of your family?" If the same person would get past their bias, do some research, and maybe take an Iguana in for a short period of time, I'll bet 80% of them would change their minds.

I have a female Green Iguana who is almost 4-feet long... and I couldn't love her more. I also have 2 Veiled Chameleons. I would move somewhere else before I'd ever consider giving them up.

-Howie

I do agree with what you and anson have stated.
I know a lot of people who are like that. And that is what I was getting at when I made the remark about doing "thier public service" bit. Trying to educate the neighbours, and their children. (Personally I find that it's the kids who are SO willing to accept the idea of a reptile as a pet, and THEY are the ones that encourage their parents to not be afraid)

Aside from the nosey neighbour intruding on something that didn't concern her...my big concern is the fact that these pet shops are selling animals that within a year can potentially become "illegal"

It's certainly a double edged sword...because I don't believe that reptiles should be banned altogether, but at the same time, I don't believe that they should be allowed to sell animals that have an expirary date, so to speak.
It's not fair to the animal, it's not fair to the owner.
I don't know a simple solution to the dilemma, that's for sure.
I just think it SUCKS that my neighbours have to get rid of their snakes!
AND that my superintendant had to warn me that if I let the neighbourhood children handle my lizards, this woman would place a complaint about me as well. (I'm not the slightest bit worried about that part of it, as my lizards are within the "rules"!)

The whole thing is bizarre if you ask me...the ironic thing about too, is, that the person who lives beside the guys with the snakes has a Rodesian Ridgeback. This dog ATTACKED my son last fall. He sustained five bites to his upper arms, his hands and a nasty one to the inside of his thigh. He has scars that will last a lifetime because of this attack. The dog was on a leash, being held by it's owner (a VET no less!!) while it proceeded to maul my son. The owner was not strong enough to pull the dog off of my child.
We have that ridiculous "one free bite" law, even though there were multiple bites, it was a SINGLE incident...and the dog was on a leash... so this dog, is still walking the streets. His owner is the big hero, because she VOLUNTARILY muzzles the dog now.
Anyway...my point being...the dog continues to be the menace in the neighbourhood after being proven to be capable of being dangerous, and these people with their snakes that haven't hurt anyone pay the price for one persons neurosis, because of a ridiculous law!

UGH!!
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Kim

I made a similiar comment not too long ago about my frustrations with laws regarding the keeping of insects as pets/prey items.
These laws that exist on the book have their place, I'm sure. They protect the general public against threats and dangers, real and imagined. But are they biased? Do they single out one group above everyone else? OF COURSE!!!!
I'll tell you, I'm irritated as *&%$ hearing about your nosy neighbor, calling animal control on your neighbor and threatening to call animal control on you. It's a real shame that any idiot can call, make a complaint, and you suddenly find yourself having to defend yourself against these accusations. You're guilty until proven innocent! Same thing with child protective services. If you were to call CPS on her (not that you would, I'm just using this to illustrate a point), she would find herself having to prove that she is not a danger to her children and that she is a fit mother.
Why is it that people can have these dangerous animals like pitbull, rottweilers, razorbacks, canary island whatever and we can't have a cornsnake? And what's with this 'one free bite' rule? What if that dog would have killed someone with that free-bite, does that mean the dog gets to live?
If these laws regarding 'exotic' animals are meant to protect the public, then these laws should cover dangerous animals. Include these dangerous 'dogs' (more like genetically designed killers) in these laws.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm just blowing off steam. Nosy neighbors suck.
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

pitbulls have a really bad wrap, worst part is that labs attack more people than pitbulls. But a lab is a "family" dog so its not hyped up.

my family owns a pitbull, he is 13 years old and the nicest dog you will ever meet. He actually saved my family 6 years ago. our house caught on fire and none of our smoke detectors went off. he sat there and jumped on my parents bed and made my dad get up to goto the door and he let the dog out and the garage was on fire, withen 5 min my whole house was in flames and burnt to the ground.

we would have informed the paper about how our pitbull saved our lives, but due to the fact that our insurance wont cover us if they find out we have a pitbull we didnt. we just tell people he is a lab mix.

my GF just adopted a 11 month old pitbull from some people that were going to take it to the pound. her parents wernt going to let her keep it. but after they relized how nice pits are they are all about the dog and the dog goes out on the boat with her dad.

pitbulls just have a bad wrap
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2 juvie crested geckos -
4 month old ambanja panther chameleon

If you notice the law is against KEEPING reptiles over 24 inches long not SELLING them.
Lets be real about it if the law was really meant to protect people from dangerous things CARS would be outlawed because more people die in car wrecks than from reptiles. What about tobbacco, alcohol, guns, I'm not saying you should outlaw these things, just pointing out that these are all potentially dangerous. What do these things have that reptiles do not have?
BIG MONEY backing them.
Yes, you are probably right the pet shops should not sell reptiles that will outgrow size limitations, they should also inform their customers about these laws, but just think how many
unreasonable laws would still be in place if no one did anything to try and change them.

Where do u live? Why is this such a problem with reps? I never herd of such a thing. What they should do is put better people in office and get this law undone.

If I remember correctly you are in London, Ontario. The 2 foot limit you mention applies *only* to snakes. The size limit for lizards is only 12 inches which I would assume covers your adult male veiled. Best to keep a low profile with Zoe. I have included a link to the London city by-laws.

T.B
London Ontario Canada animal by-laws

Wow! I just read the info in the link you sent...

Both of my lizards would then need to be "disposed" of!!

12 inches!!! So basically the only legal lizard that can be kept into adulthood is what? Anoles and geckos?!
What a LOAD of CRAP!!!
I wonder what happened to bring about such STRICT bylaws!?

Well, I guess I can only hope that "Mrs. Kravitz" never comes around my place with a sh*tty attitude, and a measuring tape!!!
I just wish I knew exactly who it is that's kicking up such a fuss! My super wouldn't name names...protecting her confidentiality...so I can only guess!
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Kim

I hate to act like a vulture, but I just thought I'd mention... if your neighbor needs a home for one or two of their snakes, I'd be more than willing to pay for shipping (plus a little extra, depending on what kind of snake it is) to me. I live in Boise, Idaho... and as far as I know, there are no such laws here.

-Howie

Such idiotic laws get passed by elected reps who get goaded into it by citizens with an axe to grind and a lot of energy to grind it with. The elected rep is clueless about the facts of the issue. The citizen is either an extreme animal rights supporter, someone who is deathly afraid of animals they have no experience with, or pathological about disease and public safety (making for a pretty boring world). It also helps to have keepers who are careless and cruel to their animals making the evening news. I am surprised your snake keeper neighbors are not moving out again if it means giving up their snakes. A little tip. Sometimes such laws will "grandfather" in animals who were legally possessed before the stupid law took effect or legally purchased somewhere else. The snake keepers could possibly provide purchase receipts with dates BEFORE the law's enactment. I once moved to New Jersey for work and found out quite by accident that 2 of my 10 year pet birds were illegal to keep there. It all hinged on the date I originally bought them regardless of the fact that they were cbb, completely habituated, and legally purchased in another state. I pitched a fit, wailed and [bleep]ed, read all facets of the law extremely carefully, wrote to state officials, offered inspections of their aviary, provided receipts for legal sale in Oregon, and found a way around it. So, unfortunately it taught me to be devious, but there was no way in h--l I would give up long term pets to some unknown zoo facility. The states never seem to establish (and follow up, train, enforce) who's responsibility it is to know such laws...seller or buyer? Most often as you said neither knows or cares. Sorry, off soapbox.

>>I wonder what happened to bring about such STRICT bylaws!?

Your city does have a strong reputation for conservatism. Members of the public can attend the municipal process that creates these by-laws and voice their opinion, unfortunately that rarely happens. The laws were likely created without any input from informed and affected groups. They were probably completely unaware of its creation. The poorly thought out wording of the by-law, prohibiting snakes in excess of 2 feet, rather then snakes that *will grow* in excess of 2 feet appears to be the loophole that pet stores operate within. Bird keepers are also severely affected by this by-law which restricts them to only 2 birds per household. They would be logical allies should London herpers ever be motivated enough to lobby for change. Unfortunately, recent news events regarding exotic pets has not created the best political climate for this!

T.B

speaking of crap like this, English RSPCA and other people liked that, are trying to ban reptiles near enought completly and chameleons are up their with the iggys and burmese pythons. i hope to be Attending a BFH (british federation of herpetologists) conference to say my bit about this so called 'banning of reptiles and exotics'. Its going to be massive, the word has gone round and herp keepers all over the UK are going to be there, i really want to addend and do my bit for future herp keepers.

>>My superintendant came to my door the other day...telling me she needed to talk to me "about my pets".
>>She then proceeded to "inform" me about the city bylaw that restricts exotic pets ( I knew about the bylaw already, but it doesn't apply to me due to the type and size of lizards I have).
>>No venomous pets, no more than two of any species, no greater than two feet long...etc, etc. Including a request that I not allow any of the neighbours, or their children to handle my lizards.
>>What brought this on...well, apparently we have had new tenants move into our complex. They have no less than 7 snakes, and rumour has it the number is actually greater than 20.
>>A week or so ago, they had one of their fellows outside for some sun, a neighbour boy (he's 9) and HIS mother went over to check out the snake. He was holding it, and the owners were doing thier "public service" bit, much the same as we all do...explaining why the snake makes a good pet, and that they really aren't scarey animals, etc. WELL...some OTHER kids mother saw this 9 year old child holding the snake, and FREAKED OUT!!! She went to the super, and complained...she went to the property management company and complained, she went to the CITY and complained...because of this, the owners now have to get rid of all of their snakes, except two, which must be under 2 feet long.
>>First off, it wasn't HER kid holding the snake, and the mother of the child that was holding it, was right there, and had no issue with it.
>>Secondly, the HUGE issue I have is...since our city has a bylaw saying no reptiles over two feet long...HOW can pet shops be allowed to sell these animals as babies????
>>They want us to be responsible pet owners...license out pets, vaccinate our pets, leash our pets...oh...and by the way...get RID of your REPTILES when they reach two feet!!!
>>It's craziness I say! Just WHERE are these iguanas, monitors, snakes etc supposed to go???
>>My superintendant is not ANTI reptile! In fact she told me herself she would rather have snakes and lizards as her tenants pets, since they don't chew the baseboards, piss on the carpets, poop on the lawns, bark all day and night!
>>She just wanted to let me know to be careful, that we have a neighbour that wants the herps out of the neighbourhood, due to her little phobia.
>>
>>I was at the pet shop where I rescued Dill, they have a WHACK of new lizards...baby iguanas, tegus, savannah monitors, water monitors...I believe the majority, if not all of those grow to more than two feet long. When I asked the pet shop guy about it...he said..."what bylaw?", "I dont know nothin' about no bylaw". He was being sarcastic of course, and described the bylaw as bulls***. He says he doesn't tell his customers about it, and IF they know about it, he tells them to break the law as they see fit...if an animal control officer comes to your door...LIE! If they MAKE you get rid of the animals, then take them to a friends until they do their inspection, and then bring them back.
>>
>>I just dont' get it. The city is teaching irreasponsible pet ownership,they bit** and whine about all the unwanted cats and dogs, because when they're no longer kittens and puppies, and no longer "cute" anymore people get rid of them...but yet the city is enforcing a law that causes much loved reptile family members to be given up when they are no longer babies.
>>The pet shop is teaching irresponsible pet ownership by not informing customers of the potential that they may invest tons of time and money only to have some phobic, "Mrs. Kravitz" type neighbour rat them out to the city, and be forced to say goodbye to their "babies".
>>
>>It's craziness! It's unfair, and unjust. I honestly believe that the vast majority of people that take on a reptile as a pet invest some much more time and money caring for thier animals than the average cat and dog owners!!
>>Just go look at the cat and dog forums on here...compare them to even just THIS forum. It's all cutesy poo, baby talk, "meow chat" kind of stuff...with some seriousness thrown in...whereas in here, we talk about health issues, and how to's, with a little cutesy poo stuff thrown in for a laugh, or to lighten the mood.
>>Don't get me wrong...I know they love their pets too, and would walk on broken glass for them!!!)
>>
>>Anyway...I need to stop ranting!! I'm just disgusted by the going's on in my neighbourhood lately!!
>> Whatever happened to live, and let live????
>>-----
>>Kim
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Jamie whitehouse