Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I bought a savannah monitor on 25 May this year, and have no previous experience with monitors whatsoever. If someone will tell me how, I will gladly post a pic just to prove that I'm not lying in saying I own one V. exanthematicus. I've read a few books and all I could find on the web, including forums. I see so many contradictions, am sometimes at lost as to who is right and must therefore rely on my better judgement. I might be a newbie here but I have enough judgement to know that monitors don't need hot dogs and ice-cream, and I'd like to thank Frank for his why I'm not giving answers to newbies post, for showing respect for us and our intellects. Let's admit it, captive care of monitor lizards is still in its infancy and more about what has worked than about what we know. For let's face it, we yet know but very little.

Naturalistic observations of the animals helps me understand how they work in the wild, and their conclusions help me understand what I am observing with my monitor in captivity. For example, thermoregulatory behaviour can help me make decisions in temps alterations in my set up. Naturalistic observations also tell me about the choices available in the wild.

But my home is not the wild, and even if I gave my monitor the whole house, it would still be very restricted when compared to its range in the wild. I must then find solutions, find ways to offer the necessary choices in a captive environment. I think this is what the Retes stack is all about, an ingenuous way to offer more choices in a limited space.

Do I even want to reproduce the wild in my captive set-up? The answer would have to be a flat no. ARCM (ask the real cave men), man lives a much longer and healthier life in civilization than he has ever have in the wild. Take dogs for example, their life expectancy has improved dramatically in the last few decades. The same can be achieved for varanus, if only we decide to.

All this to say that I need both, and the science and the practical. One to make me understand what I observe and also what I am missing, the other to tell me about captive care solutions, and both to put me on the good direction in my effort for the improvement of my monitor's well-being. When you guys decide to work together, agree that you are observing different aspects of monitors that yet go hand in hand, with the realisation that the work of each is a crucial piece in the monitor puzzle, I am convinced that we will see more success in the keeping and breeding of these fascinating animals. I sincerely hope you will both step up!

Rantingly,

Mark

by far the best post i've read in months , whitehorse for president!!!

So you say that now that man lives in "civilization" man lives longer. Which is deffently true. But now "civilization" is mans "natural habitat". But you saying that mimicing the natural habitat for varanids is not good. That raises my questions. The only reasons that wild varanids have a shorter life (usally) is becasue of diseases, predators, and destructive weather (hurricanes, tornadoes, and so on) right? And the only reasons that varanids live longer (usally) than in caotivity is because of: diseases can be taken care of by the vet, no predators (except for humans using improper husbandry techniques), and a controled enviroment right?

franz_ferdinand_ (aka flip21)

Quote:" But you saying that mimicing the natural habitat for varanids is not good."

I didn't say mimic, I said reproduce. I think you should reread my post (and my signature and then say hello to an "old friend"lol). And if I'm to mimic the wild in my sav's captive environment, does it mean I should include rhino dung in my enclosure?

Quote: "The only reasons that wild varanids have a shorter life (usally) is becasue of diseases, predators, and destructive weather (hurricanes, tornadoes, and so on) right?"

ARCM (Ask the Real Cave Men), the only reason they had a shorter life is because of diseases, predators and destructive weather. And we also live longer thanks to medical science. And again, ARCM, we did improve our "natural habitat" quite a bit, wouldn't you say? If you don't get what I'm saying here, go to your local library and ask for a pictorial book on prehistory.

Again, reread my first post. Whether I want or not, I cannot reproduce the wild in my house. But I can strive to offer the choices available there in my captive environment for my monitor's well-being. This is why we need both: and naturalistic observations to understand, and practical solutions that can be implemented in our limited captive environment. One more question: do you think I should include the diseases and predators and destructive weather in my sav's set up to better mimic their natural environment?

Lastly, I forgot to also thank Dr. Sam Sweet for sharing with us information he has gained by going through what few of us ever will.

Mark

If you belive they should have their natural enviroment, set them free, we can not provide that for them!

Ah I missed the reproduce part, but I know that today we have like 10000000000000000000000000000000000x better medical science than neanderthals (spelling a hard one lol).
-----
"Dark of the matinee"

find me and follow me
through corridors, refacteries, and files
you must follow, leave
this academic factory
you will find me in the matinee
the dark of the matinee
its better in the matinee

Like the other guys said, civilization is for use as a proper living condition, their proper living conditions are much different. I hear people ask every now and then "why should I even bother doing this, in the dirt is bugs, in the dirt is bacteria, in the dirt is worms, my monitor will live longer without it etc etc". This is how I know the archieves are not referenced before asking a question, because I have answered this question every other week for a a few years.
I have killed, buried, a few animals because of improper husbandry, so have others, if you could find 3/4 of the people who come to this forum and are gone in a month to 6 months because their first monitor is dead and they disappear just as the others do after asking or trying the same thing. When my husbandry wasnt near as good I couldnt understand what was happening to my monitors at the time but I learned and wont make those same mistakes, also try to prevent others from doing so to. Unfortunately with so many they think they are boldy going where no man has gone before, reinventing the wheel, going to revolutionize monitor husbandry by keeping theres in a way they were told on here is wrong. Its a simple idea if you cannot or are not capable of properly caring for a monitor dont get it. We live in one world they live in another, weve adapted our world for fish, so we need to adapt our world for monitors.

Well SHvar, this is exactly why I am thankful to Dr. Sam Sweet to share with us information from his naturalistic observations. When people say "there are bugs in the dirt in the wild" and things like that, they merely demonstrate a lack of imagination. Yes, their environment contains bugs and dungs and all, but the wild monitor isn't limited to a few-square-foot living area either. Take some parasites for example: some may be not so harmful in the wild, but when they're allowed to reproduce in a 55 gallon with a host confined to the same limited space, the consequences can be devastating.

The fact that most of us can't get our monitors to live longer in captivity than in the wild is evidence that our husbandry as it is today is to wanting. Revolutionising and reinventing the wheel are indeed not a solution, as you say we must learn to adapt our world to them. This is exactly why I'm thankful to both Dr. Sam Sweet and Frank Retes for each sharing complementing pieces of information.

Mark

Hi Mark and Shvar,

Yes parasites can do a horrible job on a captive Varanid, but they do kill lives ones too, as they did to dozens of V. niloticus and V. albigularis in RSA 39 years ago (Young, 1965). I tried to contact Dr. Young about this last year but he has died in 2000.

The longest lived Varanus I believe is a V. salvator from Netherlands, and reported as living 50 years! This seems unlikely and might be an error, but it is reported as such never-the-less (Lacerta, 1973); The longest lived wild Varanus is 10 year old V. niloticus in the Lake Chad area, Nigeria (Buffrenil, 2001-2003).

There are several reports on Varanus living 15-20 years, and we now know Megalania prisca lives ~30 years or so - which is a long time for any lizard (not tortoises) to live. And telling how old a Varanus is is very simple now: (except for African species which do not have osteoderms), remove a osteoderm with tweezers and cut the little 'Y' bone in half, and count the rings. You need a polarizing light to see the rings, but they are there (see Erickson, et.al. 2003 concerning Varanus, Megalania growth rates).

cheers,
mbayless

To live in a box full of dirt. My ackie lives in an adapted 55gallon with around a foot of dirt that I dug up at a local creek bank mixed with some field dirt that I dug up, and a little sand (15% or less). My albigs live in the same dirt but less a bit less sand by content. I have no bugs in my cages , except the crickets, and roaches that the ackie eats. None have any parasites, I havent seen an ant in any cage of mine since I originally dug the dirt a few years ago. Frank Retes keeps monitors in large numbers in dirt filled boxes indoors and outdoors for many many years through many many generations yet no problems, so that makes him wrong I guess, hmm, NOT!! So many keep their monitors on dirt and they grow so big so fast and are so healthy and yes they reproduce, try that on astroturf of parking lot gravel. Yes I love reading Sams recent posts on wild monitors, etc as hes posting good useful info and not playing name calling games now, but he doesnt keep many many animals breeding and living long healthy lives in captivity, something to consider when you question dirt in a cage or consider paper, gravel, cocopeat, cardboard, astroturf, tissues, or any other substrate. Consider the purpose and usefulness of the info for what we are here for captive monitors. Shoot as far as that goes try to find problems with any of my captive reptiles, I even breed beardies one female lays 21 eggs every 3-4 weeks like clockwork, they all live on dirt.

Don't recall I have ever said that dirt is detrimental? I suppose it depends on the dirt to crap ratio, but crap-free dirt is pretty clean stuff as far as monitors are concerned. In general I think cage hygiene tends to slip when you have a lot of substrate.

I don't recall saying dirt is detrimental either.

Thanks Sam, that's exactly what I was trying to say.

Mark

That in a cage say a few square feet like a 55 gallon the bugs and parasites would give them a problem, well it doesnt, it doesnt in a 30 gallon with beardies in it either, nor a 20 gallon sterilite containor with young beardies. I use dirt in every lizard over about 3 months of age that I know is eating. Its not about the dirt being in there its about the cage being unable to fulfill the animals needs from a proper temp gradient to a proper place to live that they cannot use (hide, thermoregulate, conserve moisture, etc).

Alright SHvar,

I must admit that I did not bring up my position clearly. Here's what I wrote:

When people say "there are bugs in the dirt in the wild" and things like that, they merely demonstrate a lack of imagination. Yes, their environment contains bugs and dungs and all, but the wild monitor isn't limited to a few-square-foot living area either.

I was going to follow it up with a comment that good keepers don't just dump in any pile of dirt, that bugs, crap etc. should be filtered out first, but I somehow managed to omit that, I must have been distracted.

Yet I believe that my statement is valid. It does not mean that dirt is detrimental, it just means that extra precautions must be taken. Sorry I didn't make this clear in my previous post. FYI I do keep my one savannah monitor on dirt myself.

I hope this clarifies my position. I thought we were arguing on the same side here...

Mark

I myself have had monitors years ago that were treated for parasites after being found positive during a fecal exam but the animal died usually of complications afterwards some my fault some the meds. Ive noticed something myself of monitors that were wild caught and obviously positive for parasites that I didnt treat, they lived alot longer and when they died there were no parasites to be found in them anywhere, period. This supports something FR said a few years ago, that they deworm themselves with decent conditions, it further proof of differences between the wild animal and when in captivity, I believe they are equipped to deworm themselves when they are kept in decent conditions minus the stresses of predators, starvation, dehydration, disease, more parasites, and having the choices of eating, basking etc etc when they choose to, another reason for a 24 hour basking light cycle. Good luck and this conversation was a pleasure, sometimes little details are forgotten, it takes others to remind each other of these things.

Thanks SHvar, I'm glad we both know we're on the same page now. Sorry about the little confusion, I'll review my posts more carefully in the future.

Quote:"Treating prophylactically without determing whether or not a problem may be present is not only poor medicine, it is just plain stupid in most cases." (Rundquist 1995) I'd agree that some parasitic problems can be dealt with simply -though by no mean simple- by good husbandry and rigorous hygiene practice. I also know that some parasites will be highly toxic to the host when they decompose in the host's body after being killed, or "treated." Tongue worms are some of them, and I read that they are quite common in Asian lizards. I don't know if this is what happened to the monitors you lost, I'd appreciate if you could tell me more about that. [I have to admit that my sources may be outdated here.]

I must confess that I have read but little on the "benefits" of a 24/7 basking light, I'd tend to think that they need a day/night cycle....I'd greatly appreciate if you could point me in the good direction here (book, link, etc.)

Thanks.

Mark

24hr basking lights doesnt bother them, they go underground, under a board or rock, or even close their eyes, its the inability to escape the high temperatures that gives them problems, they can sleep in the open but if the cage doesnt have a good enough temp gradient from say 86-90 down to 60-70 that they can use, temps interupt their sleep schedule not the lights. If offered 24/7 they can choose when to sleep, when to eat, when to bask etc, ie when you are asleep or whatever. Ive said it beore and Ill say it again I keep all of my reptiles in a 24/7 basking light cycle, high basking temps, on dirt, a good temp gradient, and you know it works great with my beardies.

Bad monitor husbandry suggested its bad because there are little bugs etc in dirt when you dig it up. I asked for him to prove dirt is bad..

but the same could be said for large cages and large water dishes. Instead of hanging on some copout of hygiene, shouldn't we just try harder? I mean next thing you know, we will be keeping monitors on newspaper with a glass for water.

I do wonder, if our conditions are so dirty, why do natural monitors seem to have higher parasite loads. I've done a couple necros and have never seen any parasite loads, even on w.c.s., as I recall (from one of your posts), the parasite load on wild monitors is pretty high.

I guess it all boils down to, is we should be doing a better job, I think very few would argue with that. But, we must not forget that there is more to life than a beating heart, besides making our monitors live, we should try to make their lives worth living.

Seeing the goulds tunneling away, or the argus moving dirt (bulldozing), or the ackies with their burrows, I'd say it would be cruel to not offer them deep substrate, what the heck are they going to do all day then?

I had one peachie, thoroughly disassemble (read rip apart) all of his cage 'furniture' (logs), because he finally caught on that there were termites in them, while I don't cherish having to replace all those logs, for a period of time, he had something to do that occupied all his awake time. Sure he may get parasites from the termites, but seeing him shred those logs (single mindedly tearing them apart with his claws) and gobbling down termites as fast as he could, was the sort of thing I keep monitors for. Their behavior and intelligence always keeps us on our toes.

--Robert

The biggest problem I see with your monitors is that they don't live at me house. lol

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.