Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, maybe you weren't, but I have a beauty snake that I'd like some opinions in regards to. I bought this snake (the grayish one, not the yellow) from someone about a six months ago who thought it was a blue, but I don't agree. The pattern doesn't look right to me, nor the coloration of the head. It isn't shown real well in this photo, but the top of the head is is bluish towards the edges, similar as what one sees on the head of E. t. ridleyi.

I haven't had time to do the scale counts and all that jazz yet, but I thought I would post a picture and see what you folks thought. Currently (and this photo is current) the snake is just over three feet in length, so it's still young.

I am considering the possibility of E. t. grabowskyi, based on the following photo.
http://www.ratsnakes.com/images/Etgrabowskyi.jpg

There is also a photo in the gallery that looks like it might be the same sub-species or intergrade, but it doesn't have any information.
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=42099

I should be able to post some additional photos in a day or so, I am waiting for my account to be upgraded, currently I'm out of space.

Anyhow, thanks in advance.

I'm just now getting interested in beauty snakes, so I can't say much, but I have heard of some people crossing ridleyi with other subspecies of taeniura, though I don't understand why. You could have one of these intergrade?/hybrid? babies.
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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 2001 Coral snow cornsnake
0.1 2002 Pastel Ghost poss Het Amelanistic cornsnake
1.1 2002 Bloodred cornsnakes
0.1 1998 Het Hypo, Het Caramel cornsnake (gravid w/second clutch)
1.0 2000 Hypo Het Caramel cornsnake
0.0.13 2004 Eggs (potentially normals, hypos, caramels, and ambers)

Yeah, that certainly could be the case. In addition to the possibility that someone produced hybrids, I have read that where the ranges of the various subspecies overlap, natural intergrades can occur as well.

KrazyKat,

Gotta love George Herriman - anyway, I would say it looks like a regular Blue Beauty to me. I don't think the pattern looks aberrant or different from other Blues I've seen. Of course it could always be an intergrade. You're real answer is going to come from keying it out with scale counts, etc. However, last I read, the Blue Beauties were simply listed as Elaphe taeniura spp. [unless you go for the new taxonomy - which I do - in which case it's Orthriophis taeniurus spp.]. What that means is that you're potentially going to run into problems keying it out because it doesn't actually have a subspecific designation. If you can get your hands of Fitzinger's Monograph of the Snakes of the Genus Elaphe [not sure if that's the exact title but a search for Fitzinger/Elaphe will get you what you're looking for], there may be some info in there on Blues, but I can't remember exactly - it's been a while since I've looked at a copy of that book. Looking on the EMBL taxonomy site, the only Beauties ranging into Vietnam are mocquardi and yunnanensis. Of those two, the closest match to Blue Beauties in color is the yunnanensis, judging by photos I've seen. I suspect Blues are simply a locality coloration of yunnanensis.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Hi Matt and thanks for the info.

I am eventually going to see what light Shulz's book reveals. That isn't an easy thing for me to do, as I have to either buy the book or take an afternoon off to visit a museum about 50 miles away, if they will still allow me to look through their copy. I do recall from the last time I looked through it though, that he does describe the blue, including scale counts, tongue color, pattern, and all, although as you stated, it is merely listed as E. taeniurus spp. (I'll get used to Orthriophis...some day...maybe).

I also need to wait for the snake to shed again for I'm not about to try and count belly scales on the snake itself. Been there, done that; no thanks, I'll wait for a shed.

I'll be posting two additional pics, if you want to look at them as well.

Oh, and as to George Herriman, I have little recollection of Krazy Kat from when I was a kid, but for some reason an image of that mouse heaving a brick at Krazy Kat is forever burned into what little gray matter I still retain.

Steve

KrazyKat,

Which Schulz book are you talking about? And is that Klaus Dieter Schulz?
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

...man do I feel dumb. I was thinking Fitzinger as in Fitzinger who described Elaphe and not remembering that in fact it was Klaus Dieter Schulz who compiled the monograph. I think I'll stand up and kick myself in the rear end. I still have to get my own copy of that. The most I've paid to date for a herp book was my copy of "The Completely Illustrated Atlas of Reptiles and Amphibians for the Terrarium" [Fritz Jurgen Obst - $75]. I haven't been able to quite swallow shelling out $95 [Zoobooksales.com]. Oh well, one of these days.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

I know what you mean about the price. It's a fine book though, and at least it's less expensive than it was for many years.

Let me know when you do the scale count. I have the book and would be happy to look it up for you.

Bryan

Here's what the cover of the book looks like...

I believe Schulz said the original specimens of blue beauties came from n. Thailand and Burma. Hope it helps a little.

According to Schulz ('96), Table 13 shows, taeniura ssp (blue beauty) has 276-293 ventrals, 91-103 subcaudals, and 25 dorsal scale rows. E. t. yunnanensis has 236-260 ventrals, 89-120 subcaudals, and 23 dsr. E. t. mocquardi has 251-264 ventrals, 90-125 subcaudals, and 23 dsr. E. t. ridleyi has 285-305 ventrals, 105-122 subcaudals, and 25 dsr. All other scutellation features are very similar.

Schulz thought the taeniura ssp. could be an intergrade bt. yunnanensis and ridleyi. Since that publication more specimens of blue beauty have turned up and the range has extended into ne. Thailand, I believe. It probably has influence from t. mocquardi to the east also.

The number of dorsal scale rows plus the number of ventrals should tell a lot about your snake. Good luck.

Thanks for the info and the offer for assistance. One thing that is listed in regards to the descriptions which I would appreciate (although I don't know if it will help) would be tongue color for both the blue and grabowskyi. I don't recall where Shulz has that listed, but I recall reading it.

I know that ridly's have a red tongue, I have no idea in regards to grabowskyi, and I can't remember what color tongue my blues had, but I'm thinking it may have been either black or blue, or possibly bicolored?

Thanks,
Steve

According to the descriptions by Schulz, grabowskii has a reddish tongue, ridleyi has a reddish or reddish-brown tongue, and the "blue" has a reddish-brown tongue. He considers them all part of the tropical, Indo-Malayan, subgroup.

You're welcome!

Terry

Thanks Terry,

While I am still not ready to draw any conclusions, the tongue color is at least suggestive of grabowskii, for I would definately describe the tongue as being dark pink to red.

When I looked at the snake a few minutes ago it seemed that it may be starting to cloud, so hopefully I'll have a shed soon to make some of the scale counts a bit easier. However, if this is an intergrade, I suppose the scale counts may not be too helpful, although they may at least rule out a particular subspecies.

Ultimately though, what's important is that I do like the snake, regardless. I'd just like to know what it is, if that's possible.

Steve

KrazyKat,

I was wondering why you're leaning towards grabowskyi [grabowskii seems to be a misspelling in several sources] as the subspecies? The tongue color would be somewhat descriptive for each species but the sources I'm looking at seem to indicate grabowskyi is restricted to Indonesia [Kalimantan, Sumatra, Borneo], and Malaysia [east Malaysia]. Again, the source I'm looking at lists ranges including Vietnam only for mocquardi and yunnanensis. Not having the Schulz book I'd like to see what it says in regards to tongue color on those subspecies as well. The mocquardi occurs in China, and Vietnam, and yunnanensis in China, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar, and India.
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Matt Campbell
Animal Keeper, Small Mammal/Reptile House
Lincoln Park Zoo Chicago, Illinois

Assistant Curator
Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, Illinois

Hi Matt,

>I was wondering why you're leaning towards grabowskyi
>[grabowskii seems to be a misspelling in several sources] as >the subspecies?

Well, as state, I was only leaning in that direction, not sold on it. I figured that once I did the scale counts that would hopefully clarify things.

As to why; well, for one there is what I felt was the similarity to the only picture of grabowski I was able to find, and the second was the tongue color. I would never describe the color of tongue of the specimen I have as even approaching a red-brown; however, I don't know how strong of a charateristic that is. Are some are more reddish than others? Quite possibly. Also, how Schulz perceives reddish-brown may differ from my perception of it?

>I'm looking at seem to indicate grabowskyi is restricted to >Indonesia [Kalimantan, Sumatra, Borneo], and Malaysia [east >Malaysia].

Now as to range limits, I am clueless as to where this snake originally came from, for the guy I got it from I believe received it as at trade at a show, and didn't know it's origins either. I don't even know if it is WC or CB.

Oh, and there is something else I might mention. I have the pictures on the gallery as well, and someone there commented that he/she is certain I have a blue x ridli hybrid, as they had purchased such a snake, produced by Prarieland, and that it is identical in appearance to mine.

While I am still not certain of that ID, I feel it too is a good possiblility.

Steve,

This isn't a great picture, because of the bad background, but I think you'll get the idea...

I often keep sheds for a reference and I usually cut them down the middle of the ventrum to spread them out. This one is just a piece because it was from a broken shed of an O. t. taeniura.

If your snake is grabowskyi, that would be unusual because it is a quite rare ssp. in the hobby. It probably would be very expensive too. Also, I don't think grabowskyi intergrades with any others, because it inhabits just two big islands. I noticed looking at the map that yunnanensis comes all the way down to s. Thailand and the Cambodian border. According to this map, the blue beauty wouldn't be able to reach mocquardi, or intergrade with it. I wonder if these maps would change with the addition of our current knowledge of the blue beauty?

If your snake is not a blue beauty, my guess is it would be an intergrade with ridleyi or yunnanensis, and probably ridleyi because of the tongue color and reduced body color/pattern. Of course, that's assuming it's a natural intergrade. If it's a man-made intergrade, it could be just about anything. Keep us posted and good luck with it

Terry

Hi Terry,

Rather than repeat myself, I'll suggest that if you haven't already read my reply to Matt, above, do so and it will address some of the points you made. However, there are a couple of things in your post I wished to address here.

>I often keep sheds for a reference and I usually cut them down >the middle of the ventrum to spread them out.

I don't know why, but I never thought of spliting the shed as you described. Great idea. That should make things easier for me as well.

>If your snake is grabowskyi, that would be unusual because it >is a quite rare ssp. in the hobby. It probably would be very >expensive too.

That is probably the biggest reason I would like to know, one way or the other. And while grabowskyi is rare in the trade, to say the least, as you surely know, oddballs do slip in to orders from time to time, so maybe, just maybe.

Thanks again,
Steve

np

np

I've seen breeders sell blue/ridleyi crosses (they labelled them as such). That snake does seem to have a little less pattern than normal but snakes can vary. Since taxonomy hasn't assigned a species or a holotype it's difficult to key out what is and what isn't a blue. I can't conclusively state whether your snake is or isn't part-ridleyi.

Hi There,

This is weird, for I replied to this earlier, but apparently it didn't take. Must have done something wrong.

Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts. The blue x ridley was one of my orignial thoughts as well. And now you, and a few others, have suggested it as well, so that very well may be what I have.

Thanks,
Steve

I am inclined to agree with the posts above that it's likely a cross.
I know of one breeder in paticular that is crossing ridleyi and blues and the hatchlings I have seen for sale look much like yours. Randy W.