Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I've been reading about the Brown Tree Snake in Guam, and the way it has devastated the native fauna, to the point of the extinction of many species. It was introduced accidentally in the late 40s on military transport, and spread rapidly, it is now a pest of uncontrollable proportions. It has even attacked infants and small children in their cribs. The snake has been found in Hawaii, Alaska, Corpus Christi Texas, Spain, and other places, where it was fortunately caught in time,as far as is known. One article said that officials are particularly concerned that if it reached the Gulf Coast region of the US, the effect would be devastating. Apparently, according to DNA research, all it took to introduce the snake to Guam was one gravid(is that the correct term?) female.
This may be a silly question, but I know nothing about snakes, so I'm asking those of you who do-could this happen with any of the exotic venomous snakes imported to the US,and why or why not? The possibility of this quite frightening.
Thank you

There are lots of introduced reptile species in the U.S., mostly in Florida and the Guld Coast States. There are several species of introduced Geckos, all along the Gulf Coast and in Florida and some in Texas and other southwestern States. There are indroduced species of frogs, caiman, Iguanas, Bufo, Anoles, etc. all of which have reproducing populations in the U.S. Over the years, I have also heard of populations of Forest Cobras near the Miami-Dade Airport (unconfimed to my knowledge), Brown Tree Snakes in Texas and Florida (also unconfirmed to my knowledge), and others. To date I have not seen any confirmation of dangerously venomous introduced species establishing reproducing populations, but there's no reason it couldn't happen. All it would take is some irresponsible individual with 3 or 4 snakes that he doesn't want any more to release them in suitable habitat.

My God, that's frightening. I was just kind of getting adjusted to the fact(I'm afraid of snakes, ALL of 'em-but I've never killed one-I just run!)that if you don't go where they are, you probably won't run into them too much, and if you do, there's a chance they won't bite, and if they bite, there's a chance you'll live, and we have antivenin pretty much readily for the native venomous species. Now what???!!!

Even if there was..let's say, really a population of Forest Cobras in Florida. They aren't going to come to downtown Miami looking for people to bite. I'm sure you have venomous snakes around you (native ones). How many do you see every day in your yard? How many times have you been bitten so far? If there were populations of exotic venomous snakes around, you'd have to go looking for them, then you'd have to harrass the snake into biting you. As far as your personal safety goes and chances of being bitten, a venomous snake is a venomous snake whether it's native or exotic for the most part. Your chances of actually being the victim of an unprovoked bite are less than your chances of being struck by lightening. If you leave them alone, they'll leave you alone. Now, in the event that someone was stupid enough to try to catch or kill one and be bitten by an exotic, then there may, in fact, be an issue with getting the appropriate antivenin assuming it can be correctly identified. But, even with the most dangerous exotics, excluding things like Mambas, King Cobras, Taipans and the like, a large number of people will survive even without treatment. Very few snakes carry fatality rates in untreated bites above 60%. Some of those that are commonly considered extremely deadly only carry about a 10% to 20% fatality rate in untreated bites, such as the common cobras of Southeast Asia. Permanent disfigurement and scarring and maybe some lasting neurological symptoms are far more common than deaths. Even most Sea Snakes carry about a 40% fatality rate in untreated bites. An Eastern Diamondback can carry at least a 10% fatality rate in untreated cases of confirmed envenomation. The key word is untreated. Sometimes even in confirmed envenomations no antivenin is used and the victim pulls through with only supportive therapy.

The scary part to me would be the effects on the ecology of that area in which reproducing populations established.

But what about the way the brown tree snakes have taken over Guam, and are coming into human dwellings? And would there be any natural predators to these hypothetical venomous snakes if they began breeding in the wild here? If there really weren't,wouldn't that be dangerous? I read that a large percentage of people in Sri Lanka are bitten by the Russell's Viper every year, and a good many die, and people often cross the path of that snake there. And a lot of people are bitten and many die,in India,from cobra bites. And in Australia,where most people live in metropolitan areas, a lot of dangerous snake encounters occur. I don't doubt that you think I'm utterly silly, I apologise for that, but when you're afraid of snakes, then you find that really lethal ones COULD establish themselves here, it's very scary. I'm trying to loearn, but knowing about a snake doesn't make it any less deadly.

Yeah, there are some areas of the world where there are problems with human/snake encounters in villages and towns and even in people's homes.

In most of these places, you have to consider some pretty big differences in the environment. Places such as Sri Lanka, India and other parts of Southeast Asia have frequent encounters with Russell's Vipers and Cobras. That is largely due to the fact that most of these villages are rice or grain farming villages and because of the huge stores of grain and way they store the grain, they have huge populations of rodents. That attracts the snakes. And, yes, several thousand of them die every year. But compare that to the tens of thousands that are bitten. They are mostly bitten while walking BAREFOOT through snake infested areas, many times at night while these snakes are on the prowl looking for food. I've been to these places and seen it for myself. They do very little to prevent these encounters. I'll guarantee you that if you step barefoot on a Russell's Viper, you are going to get bitten. The way these people live is a matter of necessity and economics, unfortunately. It's not that way in the United States. On another note, in India the cobras are considered sacred. The people protect them and recognize that they help keep the rodent populations down. They realize that if they didn't have snakes around to control the rodent population the losses of food from being eaten or contaminated by rodents would be staggering.

Guam has a problem with Brown Tree Snakes because they were introduced into an area with ample food supplies and no natural predators. In the U. S. there are natural predators to most of our venomous snakes. That's one reason their populations don't get out of control, in addition to the fact that there is balance with regard to available food supplies because we don't have huge open stores of rodent food laying around all over the place. There's only enough prey animals around to support a certain number of snakes. The danger isn't in introduced exotiics exponentially multipying and taking over the country, but in replacing native species in their habitat by out competing them for the available food.

I don't think that you are silly at all for worrying about it, I just think that the worrying is for the wrong reasons. Yes, there is some small amount of danger to humans asociated with the scenario of introduced venomous animals, but it is very small. The biggest danger is in the damage to the ecology and native species.

Ok, I am somewhat reassured, and I take note of your point about the disruption to the ecology-it was sad reading about what that Brown Tree Snake did to the wildlife of Guam.One more question-you may have answered this, and I just missed the answer-if any of the imported venomous snakes established themselves here, do we have any native animals(King snakes? what else eats snakes?) that could keep them under control? Thank you for your patience with a nervous Nelly when it comes to snakes.

Yeah, we have natural predators for our native snakes that would also probably control introduced species as well. This is a very complex relationship, and a whole new set of problems come with introduced species in regards to predation. There are some animals that prey on the young snakes, but then their young are in turn consumed by adult snakes of the same species. So, you can see that if an introduced snake comes with a virus or pathogenic bacteria or parasite that the native animals have no resistance to, we have a whole new problem on our hands. The predator eats a baby introduced snake which is carrying some pathogen, passes that pathogen on to it's young which are in turn consumed by a native snake which has no resistance, then the native snake can transmit that disease to others of it's kind. In the case of an ophiophagus snake preying on an infected exotic snake, the transmission route is direct.

We have alligators, birds, turtles and some mammals that prey on snakes, as well as ophiophagus snakes such as Indigo Snakes, KingSnakes, etc.

Thank you. It sounds like if we just leave nature alone, for the most part, it can take care of itself.It sounds like our interference is what puts it out of balance(like with the Brown Tree Snakes in Guam,even though the interference was inadvertant).Thank you again

In the US-

Chance of dying by falling out of bed- 1 in 2,000,000
Chance of dying of snakebite- 1 in 3,000,000

Yearly US fatalities

Snakes- 4 or 5 if not less
Vending Machines- 12

Also keep in mind that Australia contains a very large number of very deadly snakes that live right around people's homes- but they usually have LESS snakebite fatalities in a given year than the US does, mostly because of their excellent hospital system.

It's awful what happened on Guam, but that's really an island phenomenon- an animal with no predators eating prey with no resistance. Rats and cats have done a lot worse. A wild population of exotic snakes in the US couldn't do any worse damage than say, South American fire ants or European starlings. Oh dear, now I'm depressed...

Come now-if YOU get depressed, and you DEAL with snakes, then I surely will, LOL. I know the statistical chances of being bit(or killed at any rate) by a snake are smaller than some very unlikely other ways of dying, but it's just such a...HORRIBLE thing. Not as horrible MAYBE as being chomped by a shark, but still horrible. I don't know why, but to me, it's just...horrible and grotesque. I don't even watch them eat on TV.

Maybe you should watch them on TV. Try to learn all you can about them and maybe you won't be so afraid anymore. Maybe if you went to a pet store or someplace like that and touched one, you would see hat they aren't the horrible slithery detestable creatures you think they are. I've been bitten by venomous snakes a couple of times (fortunately never really life-threatening), and by non-venomous many times..I'm still alive. Hey, it happens sometimes even when you are careful. Anyone that handles venomous snakes on a day to day basis has a good chance of getting tagged at some point even if you use all of the proper techniques. It's always the keeper's fault, though. The snake is only doing what comes naturally. Human nature is that familiarity breeds contempt. The more familiar you are with the animals and the more you think you can predict what they'll do, the closer you are to a bite. Now don't get me wrong, a venomous bite is certainly not the recommended way to spend the day..it hurts. But, I've had abcessed teeth that were just about as painful. Maybe not as potentially threatening, but just about as painful.

The bottom line is that if you aren't bothering them or keeping them in captivity, your chances of getting bitten are next to none. Those of us that do keep them in captivity know and accept that the possibility of a bite is just part of the territory.

I'm sorry, I didn't state what I was saying clearly-I don't think the snakes themselves are necessarily horrible(though I'm not enamoured of them), I can even imagine how they feel-kind of muscular, I suppose,maybe kind of room temperature,maybe really smooth if they're one kind, not quite so smooth if they're another-that doesn't bother me too much,though I still can't hold one-it's the way they kill, and I know it's no worse than being killed by another animal(though sharks are pretty horrifying-I have about nil chance of ever being near one-I swim strictly in pools!)-especially when I read about constrictors killing pets, and I recall reading some snake owners talking about watching their snake eat a mouse or whatever it was, and even the SNAKE OWNERS said they will never forget the terror on the mouse's face as the snake began to eat it-that mental picture is awful, I wish I hadn't read it. I suppose they were talking about a constrictor. I don't especially love mice either, and I know they do it in the natural world, and other animals do equally horrifying things(not excluding us), but how could anyone want to purposely see that, and I've even read some decribing watching it with glee. It's not the snakes fault,but it makes it no less horrifying. I never thought snakes were slimy and all, I guess it's just an instinctive fear gone awry that I have. I hope I'm not making anyone mad at this point, and I don't go around dwelling on it for sure, I don't know why this week I suddenly got an interest in learning more.I must have read something while looking up gardening stuff.

I hope you don't think I'm being glib about this, but it isn't any less painful or terrifying for the mouse if it is eaten by a coyote, bobcat, weasel, hawk, badger, fox, owl or kitty cat, rather than a snake. At least some snakes constrict their prey, killing it before consuming it, unlike all the other predators I mentioned.
I have a cat, in addition to my snakes, and if I was a mouse, I would much rather have a kingsnake constrict and kill me in less than a minute than be batted around and chewed on for half an hour by the cute little killer purring on my couch.
I'm not trying to minimize the pain a mouse feels being killed by a snake--that's one of the reasons (besides the safety of my snakes) that I use pre-killed mice for my snakes. It's just that the way snakes kill their food isn't any more horrifying than all the other ways that predators have of making meals out of their fellow animals. If you think constriction is bad, whatever you do, don't watch any documentaries on African Cape Hunting dogs!

"The total amount of suffering in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation"--Richard Dawkins

You're right, and I hope I don't sound like a "PETA person", I don't feel that way. I don't look when I'm watching documentaries and something is about to eat something else, unless maybe bugsI guess I'd rather be a bit of a hypocrite and not know the details of survival in the wild-or how my dinner got on my plate I'm just mightily curious about snakes right now-but I'll stick to my dogs as pets

And I like the quote at the end of your post-it's correct, the things that happen don't bear scrutiny for the squeamish.