Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Specimen was collected last week on a peat Island near Lake Okeecheobee. She was curled around 51 viable eggs. Thanks Ray G. www.herpbreedingresearch.com

51 eggs, really, how sad.

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* Edited for inflammatory comment

Edited on August 19, 2004 at 19:25:01 by phwyvern.

Did he say he just left the eggs for whatever fate? Why don't you ask what happened instead of just going off flaming the guy? Ask for the full story before you just jump to conclusions.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

I don't know man, messing with mammas and babies is kinda taboo.

Granted its not NATURAL predation,but there is no difference between him collecting this animal and it being squashed by a car according to the DNR.THe reason they have so many eggs is that the likelihood of the babies surviving anyway isnt good.I dont believe anyone should make a habit of this(if he even did it)but I have always liked the idea of people working with non-commercial species.There is always work to be done with them and anyone willing to TRY and work with them should be encouraged to post here.By flaiming him you defeat all the good that could be learned from someone like this.Food for thought.Jeff

Lets not jump to conclusions people. Think about this- what if a racoon had found those eggs? The whole lot fo them would have been destroyed. I do hope that proper care was taken of the eggs to keep them from suffering without the female. I had no idea the Farancia females stayed with the clutch. That was a beautiful snake...chad

"Granted its not NATURAL predation,but there is no difference between him collecting this animal and it being squashed by a car according to the DNR."

There is a difference albeit moral. This animal was taken from a nesting site. This was a choice made by the collector. While we cannot control all traffic, we as sentient beings can resist the urge to collect nesting reptiles. Let nature take its course. If the nest is predated by "natural" influences, then so be it.

"I dont believe anyone should make a habit of this(if he even did it)but I have always liked the idea of people working with non-commercial species. There is always work to be done with them and anyone willing to TRY and work with them should be encouraged to post here."

Agreed. I have always advocated people working with non-commercial species as long as they are willing to provide the correct care requirements. There is a lot of good that can come from this. One of the goals in working with non-commercial species is to establish a captive breeding program, not to remove a nesting snake and try your hand at incubation. Collect snakes that are not nesting, try to replicate their natural environment and encourage breeding. THIS is a worthy effort.

"By flaiming him you defeat all the good that could be learned from someone like this."

By flaming him, people might discourage others from participating in such an act. If the eggs were in danger of being damaged and he saved them by taking them home and artificially incubating them, then kudos. Unfortunately, he did not say what became of the eggs and what condition they were in, accept that they were viable. If he were to post again and let us know the details of this collection, depending on the circumstances, I would be willing to post a "good job, buddy" message that praised his every move. But if he simply collected the snake because of selfish reasons and let the eggs go, then light the torches, grab a pitchfork and storm the castle.
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Mollyskali

"Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity." - Lau-tzu - Tao Te Ching

If he collected SOME of the eggs to incubate and attempt to raise starting with parsite free/non imprinted babies....perfect.To even try and start to feed a wc snake of this species would be difficult at best.And I think everyone got the idea that it is to be commercially discouraged.Jeff

By your logic it wouldn't matter if you are pulling out a herp that is nesting/laying or not. Either way you reach the same result by collecting any herp, a dead end as far as the wild is concerned. I sure hope you have never kept a WC snake because you contributed to the wiping out of all future generations that could come from that one animal.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

In my post I specifically stated that collecting nesting snakes was a no-no. I differentiate between collecting nesting snakes and non-nesting snakes because it directly affects the population in the area. While I agree that removing any snake from the wild completely removes that one snake from the gene pool, this collector may have potentially removed 52 snakes (the mother and 51 "viable" eggs). Now while all the eggs may not have hatched and certainly not all the babies survived to maturity, collecting this nesting snake still has a greater impact on the population than collecting one non-nesting snake. While that one non-nesting snake may contribute to future clutches, the impact is not as immediately significant. However, with the establishment of a successful captive breeding program, not only are there more snakes around, but the knowledge gained by breeding a difficult species is disseminated to the masses and becomes far more valuable than the one (or two) snakes originally collected. I stated in my post that I encourage people working with non-commercial species. The information gathered from such efforts is valuable. I also encourage people who collect for breeding purposes to collect neonates or yearlings because older snakes do not acclimate well in captivity. This snake was fully mature, and nesting. This is a no win situation. You are fully entitled to your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.
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Mollyskali

"Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity." - Lau-tzu - Tao Te Ching

Thank You Andy..... It would be nice if some of the persons posting would consider using a logical course of questioning instead of showing the complete lack of courtesy and intelligence implied by the comments... The specimen was removed from the peat mat where the eggs were laid. Extreme high water level and impending storms made it imperative to relocate the specimen and her eggs. Would it have been better to leave them to be destroyed when water levels rose and the mat went through a spillway???? The eggs will be incubated and the neonates returned to the local. The female will be used for educational programs unless she fails to feed.(She's taken 2 sirens with no problem.) A small percentage of the babies will be used for a research project to determine if neonates can be induced to feed on prey items that are more widely available. If for any reason they do not respond in a reasonable time period they will be released as well. In the last year i'm aware of at least 300 eggs from this species which were relocated in this manner.(This species lays up to 80 eggs so, a clutch of 51 is not unusual)

Just the reply I was hoping for. I tip my hat to you my friend. Good luck with them and let us know how it turns out (with some pictures too if you can manage it!). I am sure you will be getting (or should be getting) some apologies
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

Just curious. Mud snakes aren't exactly great captives. Not saying that they can't be, but most wouldn't be to most people.

I don't know much about Mud Snakes bt she looks great. Can I safely assume that clutch size is as remarkable as it sounds? Good luck hatching the eggs.

the rest of the snakes in the area? D'ya get them too? How about all those amphibians just lying around? And their tadpoles? D'ya leave any bark on the trees? DO NOT mess with an incubating mother. Not cool...
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Mollyskali

"Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity." - Lau-tzu - Tao Te Ching

It is good to see people taking more of an interest in Eastern Philosophy. Yay for Daoism!lol...chad

"Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people's approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity." - Lau-tzu - Tao Te Ching

htgh

Beautiful snake. If you can get sirens to feed it or to scent other prey you should be able to sucessfully keep it.

We want to know what you did or didnt do with the eggs?

Who are you to sit in judgment of his actions? He did nothing illegal and whether it was moral or not is irrelevant since morals are from a personal point of view. So get off your high horse and go herp.

Sorry, for some reason it seems that if someone does not respond to a query or e-mail right away it's a mortal sin? It's very simple to contact me...hrpbrdrsch@netzero.net, 772-519-1376 etc. Also, if some of the detractors would take a moment and log onto www.herpbreedingresearch.com they would get a better idea of what we do... There are pros and cons to collection of specimens. I do not agree with collection of large numbers of herps from the wild. However, some species can support collection and in some cases it helps native species.(As is the case with collecting introduced exotics here in Florida..another subject entirely.) Collection of certain species and their subsequent insertion into captive conditions should not be done except by very experience personel. As is the case with Mud Snakes or Rainbow Snakes. They need specialized conditions for captive care and have a specialized diet. Mudsnakes usually have a high population density in areas that support favorable habitat. They are uncommonly seen only because they occupy a niche that the general population is reluctant to search.(Bogs, swamps, canal banks, weed mats etc. etc. as the name implies..mud!) If they were easier to transition to a wider variety of prey items there would be considerable numbers in captivity and considerable number being captively bred. Our goal is to establish a few on a diet that is more readily available for most caregivers that would recieve the specimens. (We have several nature centers and zoos interested in these) What was not mentioned is the fact that we come across many of these in the wild and have relocated or left a number of adults, neonates and eggs in safety. We have been sucessful in establishing neonates of this species in the past however, it is challenging..Eventually we would like to actually establish enough data to gain insight into true captive breeding of this species. All of this has been done with nearly every species of herp for which captive specimens are available today. At some point someone took to time to research the specialized needs of an species that was relatively unknown at the time. The goal is not to produce huge numbers for commercial purposes but, to gain insight on species which may need population support in the future. Many species which are now threatened or endangered would have benefited from research BEFORE THE POPULATIONS WERE IN DANGER! Also, the research may help gain insight into the needs of species which have similar habits/habitats worldwide.
Again, there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue when it comes to collection...(This discussion would take up considerable space!!!) I hear the outcry from concerned people in regards to collection of specimens. WHERE'S THE OUTCRY WHEN HUNDREDS OF THESE SNAKES ARE KILLED ON HIGHWAY 75 AND 41 EACH YEAR DURING MIGRATION!!!!??? Where is the pressure to establish barriers and culverts to allow safe transition across known areas of high mortality??? Where's the outcry to save valuable habitat in an area where the population is growing by thousands of humans per month??? Sorry if it seems I jump subject to subject and the flow of my thought are not as organized as they should be...just getting coffee in me! LOL's!!! Rather than go on for two more pages i'll leave it as this point. Hope this explains things a little better. I appreciate those would took the time keep a level head before making a judgement. Others who were so ready to jump to conclusions, I hope you use that compassion to affect change in protection measures and habitat support rather than blaming commercial or research collection on reduced numbers of a particular species. Field collection has it's place if the population density can sustain the pressure or if there is a legitimate reason for the collection of the specimen. I could understand if the post was " Just collected 50 mud snakes out of the wild...for sale for..."

Sorry for the quick judgement.

I never said it was illegal
I still think it is better to let nature take its course.
So you go herp dude..

Perhaps a racoon would have eaten the mother AND the 51 eggs.

What if ALL 51 snakes plus "mom" went on to reach adulthood, and this led to an overabundance of mudsnakes in their little ecosystem. Thereby taxing the food supply, and leading to the extinction of the entire species in that one area.

What if worms had machine guns?....bird wouldn't mess with them!

What if..............what if.............what if.

BLAH BLAH BLAH

great looking snake, keep it, release it, eat it 100 years from now it won't matter.

Just my 0.02

PS, if they hatch send me one!

I read this thread with interest because it touches on a guiding philosophy of mine, which states that it's better to take a WC baby because they're prone to becoming what I euphemistically call "bird food." The corrollary is that if you must take an adult, don't take a female because you're also taking all the eggs she'll ever lay.

However, where an animal exists at carrying capacity AND a specimen is taken for justifiable reasons under the auspices of a clearly competent individual (which the original poster CLEARLY is), what then is the big deal? Speaking in the most personal of terms, I'm disdainful of folks who refuse to let a few inconvenient facts interfere with their prejudices. One must sometimes make a conscious effort to balance personal feelings with reality.

For example, I get calls occasionally from people who ask me to remove a rattlesnake from their yard or garage, as though the survival of the species depends on this one animal. As fervent as I am about conservation issues in general, I usually tell them to get a shovel and "relocate" its head away from its body. Where there is a possibility that children are concerned, one less rattler is not going to upset the balance of nature, whereas the alternative is potentially dire.

This is a true story. I don'gt know how it relates, but I'll tell it anyway and let you judge for yourself: I was on a remote road in the mountains very early one morning when I came across a toddler standing at the side of the road, holding his little elbow and crying. Evidently he climbed out of his crib (big surprise there) and went exploring on his parents' new ritzy estate property. He ventured too close to the embankment and tumbled to the pavement below, and in doing so became disoriented--and understandably terrified. I knew that his driveway was only a few dozen yards back down the road so I got him to follow my directions to a recognizable landmark, to which his relief was abundant. I made him proimise to go straight to his mommy, and made my way off.

Here's the thing though: his property is smack in the middle of zonata country. In fact, one live animal and one of the roadkills I reported were inside a tenth of a mile from that very driveway, so the property is also crawling with other species, including crotalus. Rather than wake up mommy and daddy and risk enraging them at the (obvious but unspoken) suggestion that the tyke needs more competent supervision, I left a note in their mailbox a few days later. Happily, they seem to have taken it to heart. At least they haven't removed all the AC I long ago placed in a somewhat more remote area of the property. Maybe some day I'll run into them and identify myself. I only hope they don't fence the property or--yikes!--acquire a large dog.

Anyway, for whatever it's worth, kudos to whoever is a good steward.