Reptile & Amphibian Forums

n/p

no, does that even make sense to you. 1. they live in two different parts of the world and 2. they arent even the same genus
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

I dont believe that they could produce offspring. As to the last poster... Balls and Bloods have been crossed, and they arent from the same area... Bloods are from Malaysia, Sumatra, Bangka Island... Balls are from Africa.. As for Genus, they are different. but along those same lines, are you saying that basically any snake of the same family, and Genus can be crossed? like say... a ball and a burm, or a ball and a rock? or maybe a blood and a Burm? they are of the same family and genus. I would really like to know this. I mean, i can understand that technically anyhting you cross should be in the same Genus.. but all the below listed are in the same genus, so if you could work out the logistics and overlook the size differences, it could be possible? Wondering..

--Ball Python--
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Family: Boidae
Genus: Python
Species: regius

---Blood Python---
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Family: Boidae
Genus: Python
Species: curtus brongersmai

---Burmese Python---
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Family: Boidae
Genus: Python
Species: moluris bivittatus

---reticulated Python---
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Reptilia
Order: Squamata
Family: Boidae
Genus: Python
Species: reticulatus

unless bloods have ben recently reclassified they are in the same genus as balls. snakes have to be relativley the same size to hybridize and even then its not as easy as strait up breeding a ballxball or carpetxcarpet. when hybridizing animals they are usally closey related or it is done geneticly(artifically) although have never heard f genetically creating snakes im sure its possible. i wish it was more possible to cross different animals.
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

More extreme crosses are still done the old fashioned way...copulation. There's no one extracting semen from males and inseminating females of other genus/species.
The males are tricked into breeding with the female of another species by allowing him to almost copulate with a female of his own species, then pulling a switch at the last second. It is pretty difficult to pull off and even more difficult at times to get eggs even if one got them to copulate. All of this info and more about hybrids is listed on various posts all over the forum.

-Yasser
SR

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i also hope u realized u just said bloods and ball arent in the same genus but then listed in your little overview that they are both in the genus python
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

Yea.. i just realized that when i re-read my post. I meant to say they aren't different, but wanted to know if all snakes or animals for that matter of the same genus can be mixed is all. It seems if you want to try hard enough anyhting is possible. I mean, I am sure balls and bloods simply in the same cage wouldnt make them breed... you would have to pull one of the snakes at the last minute and substitute it with the one you wish to hybridize with. Technically, you could cross anything as long as it is in the same genus.

First off, there are no rules governing nature.
And second, the classification of animals is man's way of trying to put something in a box and labeling it...it is by no means infallible LOL! That's why species get reclassified all the time. And for the record, there are COUNTLESS instances of inter-genus hybrids including those like Liasis X Morelia, LampropeltisX Pantherophis, Pantherophis X Pituophis, and Lampropeltis X Pituophis. So your idea of inter-genus hybrids is out the window. Just take a look at the various colubrid classifieds here and you'll see a few of these crosses for sale right now as I type...guaranteed.
As far as scientific nomenclature ever being accurate, that'll never happen. The arguements regarding squamates alone would make your head spin. IMO, no taxonomist will ever be correct, just more accurate with more information backing their amendment to the world of taxonomy.
SR

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I was basically trying to say that when i originally responded to the original poster... he asked if it even makes sense, and he based it all on 1- locality and 2- genus. all i was doing was asking by that rationale, does that mean that NOTHING can cross the genus label? i mean, hell, nobody knows what is possible until it is tried. so unless someone has tried a few times TO cross a ball and a carpet.... I would imagine it may be possible... until proven that it cant produce offspring.

yes in theroy anythings possible but if u believe that about everything u wont get very far. i have no opions on hybrids in the herp world where as some people are totaly against them. if u are correct that means in theroy a lion could mate and have offspring with a common house cat because in theroy anythings possible but does it make sense to you that that would happen, u make the call. and if anybody does create any of these "monster" hybrids post pics of the animals and take pics of the copulation
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

That concept is a little shaky too.
Corns have been bred to Hondurans and Hondos can be quite a bit larger (3 times the weight) not to mention the huge size of Hondo eggs. Same goes for Corns X Gophers...giant eggs and 3 times the weight. Then there's the GTP X carpet crosses where the carpets can be 4-5 times the weight of a typical GTP. Not to mention most GTPs reach only 5 feet and some carpets can easily reach 9 feet plus. AND this cross has been done BOTH ways! So little female GTPs female can squeak out eggs fathered by a much larger carpet species.
As far as mammalian hybrids go, they just simply cannot be done due to just being more highly evolved and complicated as living creatures. That's why when it is pulled off, they tend to result in infertile offspring as opposed to reptile hybrids, which actually show hybrid vigor! They can produce more fertile eggs (sometimes to almost ridiculous numbers) and sometimes grow twice as fast as either of the pure species used to create them!

I just think that there is no way we can ever feel we know the limits of Mother Nature. She's the biggest freak of 'em all!

-Yasser
SR

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well then i want to see a sand boa x retic, or even closer a ball x retic, i understand that size doesnt usally matter but alot of times species that hybridize a closely matched ie burm x rock, burm x retic, atb x etb
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

I'll agree with this last post. Most hybrids seem to occur in related genuses/genii? Pantherophis and Pituophis and Lampropeltis are all Lampropelteni. No one has done an Old World and New World elaphe cross (when pantherophis were elaphe). Anacondas and rainbow boas are pretty well related, burms and retics too, balls and blood are both Python and GTP's and carpets are all Morelia.
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~Katt

i agree in theroy with yessar but in logic wut i and the last person said makes more sense to me, i think a good rule with hybridizing is if it makes sense taxonomicly,localy,and size wise it very well may happen
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

Sure I think there are some boundaries (Elaphe and Pantherophis) to what can be done but I think the only reason that we seem to see hybrids primarily within a genus is primarily because this is a relatively new approach to herpetoculture and there is a huge stigma about producing them. So therefore not too many people are taking the risks to attempt some of the more outlandish crosses. Nor are they as willing to share their successes and failures with the rest of the world. What you see here on kingsnake is probably only 10% of what folks are really trying out. I think in due time, we will see more and more interesting stuff pushing the boundaries of what taxonomy is supposed to represent.
And for the record, back in the early 90's, Anaconda X Rainbows were produced, as were Boa Constrictor X Rainbows as well. Not a huge jump geographically, but definitely a jump taxonomically and in regards to size again.
And in further regard to Elaphe and Pantherophis, it seems that just because they were once all the same, that we cling to the idea that they are closely related when in fact they are not...and this is why they have been reclassified. That's like trying to breed a racer to a ratsnake...a hybrid I don't think could be pulled off. The old world "ratsnakes" of Elaphe have been shown to even produce venom related to some of the most toxic known to man.
Simply put, I don't think we will ever be able to say we have correctly identified and categorized all of the snakes species, even just the more common ones we all play with.
And to think that nature is going to follow man's "rules" is an absolute joke.
SR

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old world elaphe are more evolved than most american elaphe, anacondas and rainbows arent that far off in length but in weight there is a huge difference. i know this may sound a little peta like but do u think there could be a possiblity that snakes pick and choose wiether or not they will hybridize? just a thought
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tree boas all the fun none of the venom

You do not need to PULL a female at the last minute. If two snakes will not recognize each other as possible mates naturally there are two things to do.

First Mimic individual natural conditions for each before introduction. And Second if crossing say a blood and ball after doing this, if the male is the ball place a recent shed of a mature female ball in the blood cage. The presence of the recognized pheromones should, with good breeders, entice the male to copulate with the blood.

Or maybe you have an animal like one of my boas who breeds the paper when there are no females, and he would mate anything.

Also in regards to Genus. Two animals do not have to be of the same genus to breed and produce offspring, but they do have to be the same genus if you do not want mulkes and you want the F1 hybrids to be able to reproduce as well.

I dont think youre givng geneticists their due credit. It CAN be done with gene manipulation, but I would doubt it could be done naturally. Listen to Yasser, hes the only person who seems to know what hes talking about.... or maybe he just has really good grammar