Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, fellow Pit-lovers!

My name is Terry and I am the proud owner of a wonderful adult bullsnake. I have something unbelievable to tell you guys! I've been mentally and emotionally stressed out for the past couple of days because of a difficult situation that I am currently going through. Anyway, I have noticed that my bullsnake's behavior has changed dramatically around approximately the same time that my stress has started. For example, last night my bullsnake became active and started roaming around from one end of his tank to the other trying to get out. He is very restless and this activity is STILL continuing from last night... non-stop! In fact, he is still restless and roaming around his enclosure as I type this. The thing that baffles me is this is not like my bullsnake at all! He has the type of personailty where he is a relaxed and mellow snake. Sure... he becomes active sometimes, but nothing like this though! I have never seen my bullsnake like this. This is out of the ordinary for him. It is strange that this activity started around the same time that I started having my problems. I think it is because he senses that something is wrong with me. I think he is picking up on my "vibes" and he is worried about me. This is what I would like to believe anyway! Am I wrong in assuming that my snake is capable of feeling and sensing my emotions? Perhaps I am just giving him human attributes and his change in behavior just happened to coincide with my own situation? Is this only a coincidence? What do you guys think? I would love to hear your thoughts on the matter! Any feedback is greatly appreciated by me. Thanks for allowing me to share my experience.

Take care,
Terry

I'm sure lots of folks disregard the myths as nothing more than superstitious fancy but the reality is that snakes have been intertwined with human emotion and well being for most of recorded history. Some of the stories are scary and horrific but others involve much more complex relationships (Nechushtan, Aesculapius, Ningishzida, Hopi Snake Dancers, Erichthonius, Ophion, Muchilinda, Nagas, Kundalini etc...). I personally revere the creatures as an integral part of my psychology and have no question that a type of crude (or perhaps advanced) empathy exists between the species.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

` Emotions are a pretty basic thing, in animals. I've seen plenty of snakes get mad, and stay that way, for hours, or longer, then get over it. I believe that many of our emotions come from a level so basic that we share it with other critters, including snakes. Anyone who has kept Oscars (large South American tropical fish) knows that they can get mad, hold a grudge, and be playfully interactive with humans, too.
` I've been keeping Boids for over 40 years ( and getting ready to get into Pits ). During that time, I've experienced many snakes exhibiting emotions, and not only toward humans.
`
` It's been over 5 years, the Ball hasn't had a problem yet.

`
` This picture is from Yahoo news, sometime ago. That baby looks pretty tasty, to me. And, even if the snake is not hungry, why is it letting the child scrub its head, with what looks like a bristle brush.??

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I finally took my bullsnake out of his enclosure and held him for a while last night because I was concerned about him. Guess what? As soon as I put my bullsnake back into his tank, he immediately returned back to his normal self again! He is no longer restless and agitated like he has been for the past couple of days! He has settled right down again. He even stared at me for the longest time (after I put him back into his enclosure) just to make sure that I was alright. So, this only reinforces what I was saying in my previous post. I firmly believe that my bullsnake only wanted to be reassured that I am okay. I can't explain the dramatic changes in his behavior otherwise. WOW!!! I actually have a snake who worries about me and cares a great deal about me! This is amazing and wonderful at the same time! I will never see my bullsnake as just an ordinary snake. My eyes have been opened. I DEFINITELY see bullsnakes in a different light now. They deserve a lot more credit than what most people give them.

Does anyone else have any similar experiences like mine? By the way, I am very impressed with the feedback I have received here so far. Thanks, guys! Please keep the replies coming! I am interested in others' viewpoints.

Take care,
Terry

i figured that the poster would get "posted" for anthropopmorphosizing their snake. I've seen others post similiar comments only to be ridiculed big time. Hmmm, I guess I'll have to give this idea some more thought. I've been figuring that my snakes considered me only as their climbing tree.

Thanks for your comment, Passport. )

Well, I am only reporting what I have personally experienced. It is up to the individual to come to his/her own conclusion. I realize that different people have different beliefs and not eveybody will be in agreement with me. I respect them for that. However, it does NOT give those people the right to tear me down for what I want to believe (even if it does seem absurd in their minds). Only close-minded people will ridicule me for my post. There is nothing wrong with saying to a person that I disagree with him/her on a particular point, but I think it is wrong when that person is judged and ridiculed (despite the fact that what the person says is not "mainstream". However, I was half-expecting to be ridiculed when I posted my message because there are always "flamers" out there ready to pounce. So... IF I do get ridiculed then it would not surprise me in the least. I am ready for any flames. Thankfully, this has not happened to me yet. The replies from people here seem to be all positive so far and I really do appreciate it!

By the way, I am glad that my post has played a part in giving you cause to rethink things regarding bullsnakes (or even snakes in general). It helps to have an open mind though.

Take care,
Terry

And I'm hoping that maybe I'll see some interaction like you've described. Mine are hatchlings and so adorable. They do like to come to the end of their little tub in the rack and peek at me when I'm in their reptile house. Of course, I do lots of peeking too. Just can't seem to leave them alone. I hope they stay this sweet.

done your homework. I'm not sure my snakes key off my emotions like my dogs do. It's not anthropomorpic to say your snake is calm, flighty, hisses, etc. I would have to question whether they have the emotions happy, sad, mad, etc. Rather, I would argue that my snakes have a comfort zone. If they are out of the zone they react in some genetically predetermined way. They might hiss and rattle their tales, strike, strike and bite, run and hide. None of these things have to do with snake emotions or feelings as such.

Through operant conditioning (Pavlov's dog) you can condition your snake to your being a part of its comfort zone. This is why we handle them so that they become accustomed to us.

Just my humble opinion and this in no way takes away from my enjoyment of the hobby.

Mike B

You are totally correct, Mike. There are lots of different kinds of animals that are capable of basic emotions such as fear, anger, joy, sadness, love, etc... The typical family dog is the perfect example of this! Haven't you ever wondered why people often treat their dogs like part of the family? It is because these animals are so much like ourselves. We often form strong bonds with them as a result.

Take care,
Terry

I'm sorry, but this sounds completely rediculous.

Althugh I hate to use the word, animals do have certain "emotions" I guess, but only what ties into instinct, and what "emotions" would aid in their survival.

Dogs bond with humans and in effect "love" them because they are pack animals by nature. They MUST care for other members of their pack to ensure survival.

Snakes have use for several basic "emotions" that human can relate to:

Fear (for obvious reasons)
"Anger" (another survival tactic, becoming a formitable animal to attack etc)
"lust" which can be applied to the breeding instinct or hunger

...but what about "caring" or "love" ?
Why the hell would a snake care if a human was ok?

A human that puts him in a cage?

Snakes are solitary and care about their own survival and survival tacticts...that's about it.

Emotions like caring and love exist out of requirement. Snakes have no use for such things.

Sorry if that makes you feel bad...but...the peception that your snake cares about you is a fantasy.

to agree. When I was happy, my chondro would lunge and try to bite me. When I was sad, it would lunge and try to bite me harder. I have never seen any snakes, either mine or any one elses, that actually acted "affectionate" or "loving" or "understanding" towards a human or even another snake. They pretty seem totally oblivious to all the drama around, probably because they are. I don't think a snake's brain is capable of "human emotion." My take on it. Don't mean to offend anyone.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

First, I have no doubt that those who have not seen evidence of "emotion" in their snakes are telling the truth. If you expect a creature to act a certain way it most likely (not inevitably) will (including humans). That dosn't mean however that the emotions, personalities, etc... don't exist in any snake. What it does mean is that in many settings (including everything from the wild to scientific labs) the observer has not observed anything they would classify as emotional response. I am far from convinced however that all the data is in on brain function even in reptiles.
Second, it would appear that humans "reptile brain" is cued into some instinctual emotional responses and I would venture to guess (not being a biologist) that the reptile brain in reptiles is also responsible for similar responses.
Third, what are emotions on a scientific level other than certain chemicals firing in response to certain stimuli. The same thing is happening in the entire kingdom of Animilia.

I'd love to go on with arguing, but my main point is that it's mostly semantics and what you choose to call emotion. I don't believe that science has cracked all of the mysteries of the brain or existence and until they do I'm going to believe I have a connection with my snakes.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

Amen to that, Ron! Hehehe... I couldn't have said it better myself.

We definitely don't know everything there is to know that goes on inside the brain. So, there are many mysteries which still need to be solved. Obviously a snake is not nearly as intelligent as a dog because its brain is much smaller, but the basic emotions are still there. We don't know what it is really like to be a snake. So, how can we truly know what goes on inside the mind of a snake? Sure... I can't prove that a snake can feel love, but other people can't prove that it can't neither. There is no "wrong" or "right" in this situation. A person believes what he/she believes. So be it. Live and let live.

The other guys are entitled to their opinions though. I respect them for it. This is what makes this world a wonderful place to live in. If everybody believed the same thing then this world would be a very boring place to live in. We are all cut from different "molds". Thank God for diversity!

Take care,
Terry

There are certainly reactions that happen in the mind of a snake, and I can see how you would consider that emotion, and I really don't argue that point.

I guess I personally shy away from using the word emotion because people tend to relate them to human emotion...and I have to believe they are very VERY different.

Snakes are solitary animals that act mostly on instinct. THey are miniature adults when they are born and can take care of themselves, proving that they are driven mainly by instinct, as there is nothing that needs to be learned in order to survive.

They get nothing (as far as learning) from parents or other snakes other than their very birth.

Snakes no doubt do "learn" some things as they mature (what to avoid, how to find birds nests...probably lots of things)
but we can't really understand how their brains work. Rest assured it's very different from ours.

Here is an animal that can sit for days on end (sometimes weeks)
without really moving and not experience bordom.

If we think that they are human-like in their emotion, then we are nothing less than terrorists, keeping them in tiny little torture chambers, void of much stimuli, fresh air, sunlight, etc.

I just don't think you can humanize them.

Try laying on the floor and preteding you are dying with your dog...and watch the concern he shows.

Do the same with your snake on the floor, and watch how he looks for the first place to escape...completely and utterly apathetic to you.

a
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

"A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika. Nothin' proper about ya propaganda. Fools follow rules when the set commands ya. Said it was blue when ya blood was red. That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head"- Rage Against the Machine

I really appreciate the views presented and I honestly don't think we're too far off of each other... I don't posit that snakes or any other member of any Phila of the Animal Kingdom fully understand and accept the values, attitudes, and beliefs of Homo Sapiens. I also know that different species have different responses to different stimuli (eg. wave a dead rat in front of a dog and you probably won't get the "emotive" feeding response or wave a dead child in front of some politicians and you'll probably get the same level of apathy). I also know however that we have a very "reptilian" part of our own makeup that I believe makes a level of "empathetic" communication possible between our species and Serpentes. Is it an identical relationship to one with other species? Probably not, but I don't downplay it as "lesser" at all. Again, I will go back to my first statement that humanity has been intertwined with snakes for recorded history. The Baccanals of early Greece and Rome utilized serpentine movement similar to the "trancing" of a Naja to find spiritual ecstacy. My understanding (from a friend who has a PhD in Artifical Intelligence) is that this type of activity stimulates a "reptilian" part of the brain that we seldom directly access. As "dfr" noted below perhaps if we "snakize" us a bit we can see the connection between our species. In conclusion, I have little doubt that a snake would show much response to me playing dead, but there are many humans that have the same response. I think to me that it's not important for an animal to show anthropomorphic characterisics when I'm dealing with it. I'm more interested in finding that empathic place where we can "emotively" connect as "entities" unencumbered by species definition...
One final note on emotion and "lesser" creatures: If you get a chance read a bit of "The Secret Life Of Plants" by Thompson.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

I guess rediculous was a harsh word.

It's a debatable issue...it just seems to me that we as humans tend to (very naturally) look at things from a human perspective, and I think we have no way of really understanding the mind of a snake.

Logically, I tend to think that animals are only going to experience emotion that has some value to their survival.

BUT...I don't want to come off as so arrogant that I know these things for sure...as we certanly have a LOT to learn about these animals.

Like you... I am only interested in finding empathy between the species. Surely, humans are not the only animals (yes, we are mammals) who experience it! It is within "typical" human nature to think that we are the only ones. I know other animals are capable of things such as grieving for others. It is a fact that elephants have been recorded visiting the remains of others in their family and actually weeping. I will refer all of you to the book "When Elephants Weep". This book talks about the emtional lives of animals. It backs up what I've been saying about my bullsnake. I highly recommend this book! Here is the link for it:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385314280/002-4834562-0336855

If you can, please take the time to read all the reviews. Better yet, buy the book and read it!

Another excellent example is when a young chimp (in Jane Goodall's study) died of grief because its mother died. I can give you example after example. Shall I go on, folks?

Take care,
Terry

`
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I am only trying to reinforce my point and I think using the book "When Elephants Weep" is an excellent way to do this because it talks about the emotional lives of ALL KINDS of animals (not just elephants).

Take care,
Terry

` I guess I'd better read the book, first, however,
` Elephants may weep on one end, but on the other end they're even worse than my Anacondas. An alimentary canal with an appetite on one end, and no conscience on the other. LOL

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I wasn't trying to equate snakes with elephants. So, please don't get me wrong! I was only giving examples of animal emotion... that's all.

Take care,
Terry

I DO understand what you are saying and you also have some excellent points. However, the other guys have some excellent points as well. I truly believe that reality is different for everybody. Reality is only perception, in my humble opinion. Just because you don't perceive things in the same way that I do, does NOT make it any less real for me and visa-versa. Your reality is what you know and it is fact for you just like my reality is what I know and it is fact for me. I am only sharing what I have personally experienced. Your own experiences will be different from mine, of course! However, this doesn't make mine any less valid. Like I said in my previous post... there is no "right" or "wrong" in this situation because neither one of us can actually prove our points one way or the other regarding what truly goes on inside the mind of a snake. By the way, thank you for sharing your viewpoint. It is always nice to hear both sides. This has turned into a great debate! I am enjoying this.

Bottom line is... reality is how you perceive the world around you.

Take care,
Terry

I am sure the way that animals experience things are totally different than the way humans experience them. However, I would like to think that my pet snake loves and cares about me in his own way (even though it is not under the human definition of love as we know it). I would like to think that there is a bond between my snake and I. This is one of the things in my life that brings me happiness! Though I wouldn't be saying this about an animal such a cockroach (because I don't think they are capable of emotion like other animals are... such as a dog or a cat, for example). Of course, a snake is lot more advanced than a cockroach! Out of all the types of animals in this world, I think each one is different and brings with it a new set of questions to debate over until the end of time.

Take care,
Terry

` In your two posts to this thread, you certainly sound like you have your mind made up, as far as knowing what there is to know about snake behavior, its sources, and its potential, and therefore not allowing for any more than you have experienced.
` Rather than snakes reaching toward our level, I think that we display much behavior that ties us to their level.
` Actually, their mental functions are identical to our most basic functions. Most of which we have learned to control, or suppress. Rather than "humanize" them, we should "snakeize" us.
` I believe that their being able to sit for days on end has more to do with their metabolism, than with their mental processes.
` There IS much that they need to "learn" in order not only to survive, but to adapt to whatever niche in the ecosystem they find themselves. This is clearly displayed by many snakes adapting to captivity, with different levels of success. I have raised siblings, produced by wild caught, gravid parents, who have shown differing levels of willingness, or capability, to adapt to captivity. I have also raised different individuals of the same species, which were wild caught, who have shown widely differing reactions to captivity. That was long ago, when captive snakes were almost all field collected.
` When you "hate" to use a word, or do anything else, you're being a snake. I find myself doing this all the time. Even the snake can rise above this, and "learn" to accept what it used to hate.
` Finding someone else's experiences "ridiculous" is a good way to stunt your own growth process. When you box yourself in with dogma, you miss so much, and usually don't suspect you're missing it. Some naive wonder at unsuspected new experiences, even vicarious ones, is one of the things we do have over the snakes. Don't waste it.
` Besides all that, I think he was saying the snake was reacting to his mood. I don't know if a snake can "worry" about me. I do know that my big male Anaconda acts scared of anyone who is scared of him. He'll let anyone handle him, but if they act frightened of him, he just wants to get away from them. If I stand farther away than he can reach, he'll keep trying to get to me, reaching out farther than he can support himself. He does not do this when strangers handle him with confidence.
` The previous poster who mentioned a "comfort zone" is on the right track, I think. When in that state, they are able to exercise some of their few options.
` The other poster which mentioned semantics is also on the ball.
` If it's all instinct, why does this snake do this?

` Or this?

` I think it's learned behavior. If you start out with the right individuals, you can "teach" or condition them to do many things not included in their instincts.

` Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong!
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argued this for years the question Does animal behavior mean something. Their studies if Sika Deer and Great Tits(they are birds) and others laid the basis for archaeologist Edward T. Hall to coin the phrase "Proxemics" from proximity and emics(meaning). Basically that the way animals and man utilize space in our lives has meaning. And at some level is understood. Certainly a part of this discussion is do animals have feelings, emotion, etc.

Whatever side of the fence you are on, this discussion in no way dimishes the enjoyment we have for our snakes, lizards, dogs, and cats. Personally, my enjoyment comes from just holding a snake and having it crawl lazily through my hands. This is very soothing to me. My snakes seem to enjoy this too, but I can never be 100% sure. That's OK with me.

Mike B

in his subsequent post. I do not see his post as having his mind closed to other viewpoints; it was simply a statement of his opinion, and I think it made good logical sense.

Terry is certainly welcome to his opinion and it's nice to see that no one has ridiculed him for it. I can appreciate the possibility of a "mental connection" but, IMHO, a snake "worrying" about a human, in any fashion, is a real stretch.

One thing I'd like to take issue with you is your statement "I believe that their being able to sit for days on end has more to do with their metabolism, than with their mental processes. " I think that no matter how slow your metabolism, if you have any sort of higher mental processes, then sitting in one place for days on end should drive you INSANE...LOL! I think that would be the case with any mammal, but it sure doesn't seem to bother snakes.

I think we'd all like to give as much credit to our snakes as possible, because they're an integral part of our lives (otherwise, why would we spend so much time on this forum? LOL). Still, we also should recognize their limitations. Otherwise, we'll end up as wacky as those people who spend $1,000 on a coat for their dog.

Yes, I would have to agree with you that Dean HAS softened up his reply. I don't think he is closed-minded. Dean is entitled to state his own opinion.

Anyway... you said, "I think we'd all like to give as much credit to our snakes as possible, because they're an integral part of our lives (otherwise, why would we spend so much time on this forum? LOL). Still, we also should recognize their limitations. Otherwise, we'll end up as wacky as those people who spend $1,000 on a coat for their dog." Well, I think the difficult part is finding that "happy medium" because we DON'T know what goes on inside the minds of animals. We need to find a balance. I guess it is different for everyone

Take care,
Terry

You might be correct in saying that it is a stretch that a snake will "worry" about a human. However, I really do sense that my snake loves me in his own way (it doesn't necessarily have to match the human definition of love for this to be valid... an animal might experience it in a different way than we do).

Take care,
Terry