Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I saw a post a while back about a person who had lost an Eastern Indigo snake. I wanted to post some comments. Aparrently the animal died rather rapidly. I have killed more Indigo snakes than I care to mention, and I am afraid that if I were honest, I would have the indigo brigade at my doorstep. I wanted to pass some info onto others about how to kill an indigo.

The easiest way to kill an Indigo is to allow his water to run out. This can happen due to not checking the cage frequently enough or sometimes the animals can tip their bowls over entirely. It is very important to make sure indigos have water daily. I had to learn this the hard way. After about three days without water, you can assume that the animal is sustaining kidney damage. Without water to flush the urine out of his system, the level of uric acid builds up in the bloodstream and damages organs, particularly the kidney. A snake without water for one week is in danger of death.

Indigos have such a potent feeding response that even when starved of water for a week, they will usually still feed. I used to think that since the animal would eat after I gave it water, that it was OK. Then, a week to a few months later, when it died, I would be bewildered. Feeding a water starved indigo right away is the worst thing you can do. This causes the uric acid levels to rise further, and with damaged kidneys, it is the meal, compounding the damage to the kidneys that kills them.

An animal that is suchly water starved can be saved. First, don't feed them for a week or two after giving them water again. After this, you should feed them regularly but only give them one quarter to one half the normal size of meal. You may have to do this for a year. The indigo snake is capable of recovery from this, but you have to be disciplined to restrict the size of their meals for a long time. Their kidneys will totally regrow, and the animal can recover fully.

Veterinarians have no clue when you bring them a water starved indigo. They will have absolutely no idea what is wrong.

When a snake dies, and the vet has no clue, they will commonly diagnose the snake with cryptosporidium. They may do this on the basis of the acid-fast stain of a smear of stomach tissue. The acid-fast method is not reliable (especially in the hands of a vet lab that never sees this disease and rarely tests for it). That is why there has been developed an immunofluorescence assay. Even with the IFA test, I wouldn't trust it unless it was done by a person highly experienced with this assay. Your vet most likely isn't. The test should be run along side with known negative stool samples. This way a positive can be compared with a negative. Crypto passes into the stool only irregularly, and so if you get a positive the first time, you should be suspicious as well.

When a snake dies of water starvation, the symptoms resemble crypto. The snake withers away, gets skinny, digests food poorly, and you may see undigested food and mucous in the feces. The feces smell bad.

If you have lost an animal, ask yourself, did it run out of water? Cryptosporidium is a catch-all disease that veterinarians claim when they really have no idea what the problem is, and are embarrased to admit it.

I am interested to know if anyone has ever had an indigo diagnosed with crypto that meets these conditions:
IFA assay, negative stool sample tested alongside, done in a competent lab experienced with the disease, stool samples vary from negative to positive over time. So far, I haven't heard of anyone.

Cobras are considered to be immune to crypto, because they are snake-eaters. Indigo snakes are snake eaters too. I wouldn't be surprised to find that, in reality, indigos are immune to crypto as well.

I will post other ways to kill an indigo later.

Robert Bruce.

.....had not considered the points you made.

for what it's worth......my cribos seem only to drink directly after meals and not very heavily at that. once in awhile they take water in between but not very much at all. i feed my adults roughly 2 times a month so you can see they are not drinking a great deal and almost never, ever soak. just curious as to your remarks.....

What's a normal amount as far as water consumption for indigos? Also what what is the best way to serve the water (size of container...etc)? Any recommendations?

I don't know about "normal", but I just keep a big water dish in the cage. The dish is big enough that the snakes can't tip it, and they can even get into the dish if they want.

Doug T

>>What's a normal amount as far as water consumption for indigos? Also what what is the best way to serve the water (size of container...etc)? Any recommendations?

An adult indigo weighing 2kg or more will drink about 25 percent of his body weight per week in water. Smaller snakes will drink a larger percentage. Hatchlings will drink 100 percent of their body weight or more per week. These are rough estimates based on 82 degrees (27 to 28 degrees C) and relative humidity of 25 to 50 percent.

Compare this to the common rat who will drink 10 percent of his body weight per day or 70 percent per week. Since the metabolic rate of a rat with a warm body temperature is twice the metabolic rate of an indigo at 28 degrees C, we can surmise that adult indigos drink almost the same amount of water as rats, when corrected for metabolic rate.

The reason smaller snakes drink so much more is based on physics or mathematics. Anybody remember their Analytic Geometry? The surface area of a three dimensional object goes up at the square of the measured size, whereas the volume of an object goes up at the cube of the measured size (ie length for a snake). So a smaller snake will have a much larger surface area to volume ratio than a larger one. Indigos obviously transpire a lot of water through their skin. Got it? The exam is in two days.

I have had indigos which like to get into their water bowl to soak or to defecate. I don't like to encourage this characteristic. To combat this, I use a water container which is difficult for the animal to be comfortable in. I will post my water bowl recommendations later.

Robert Bruce.

I would personaly like to thank you for the open and transparent way in which you share your falures as well as things other breeders deem as trade secrets. It is this open attitude that helps all Indigos and breeders. I wish more people had your open, generous nature. Thank you.

What sighthunter said. As I've said before. You guys are alright! I wish other herp sites were as decent and proffessional as yours.

I would agree with Robert that Cloyd may or may not have died of Cryptospridium.I am in no real position to say. Crypto is probably overdiagnosed for a variety of reasons. It is probably often an opportunistic pathogen in snakes, as it is in mammals. There are thousands of unknown and known pathogens and factors that are possible that can cause symptoms and death similar to Cloyd's. And more often there may be some more mundane husbandry or organ or metabolic problem underlying things.Lots of times the pathogens are just sitting there waiting for the right conditions to enable them to multiply unchecked. We all like to blame things on something, and have nice concrete answers. For a variety of emotional, economic, and practical reasons, we want to put a name and blame on it, get some closure, and get on with things. This may not be the best thing from a scientific and learning point of view. But it is a fact of life in both veterinary and human medicine. We will never know all of the factors that contributed to Cloyd's death. All we know for sure is tht he is missed and people care.

Fellows,

I agree with the assertation that the Indigo may have not expried from crpto. Years ago I had a male Indigo that I neglected to give water to frequently and he went into renal failure in a matter of WEEKS. These snakes produced volumes of liquid waste products, so it figures that they would also need water frequently. Mine drink ALL THE TIME, espcially during those hot spells during mid summer.

I havent had an Indigo diagnosed with Crypto, but have had one die from what the pathologist said was a internal hemorrage.

I concur with the observation that these snakes, above all others must ALWAYS have CLEAN water in their cages at all times.
I say clean because I have seen an awfull lot of herpers adding more water to a bowl that needs badly to be sanitized, to be scrubbed and cleaned. The snake DRINKS this concoction and ingests yet more non beneficial bacteria and pathogens. And this affect is compounded if they urinate or defecate in the water dish.

Take care folks,

Fred Albury

It always amazes me when I see a collection only to find lots of dirty water bowls or water that is stagnant. As a curator of a successful wildlife center featuring herps, and, breeding a modest sized collection of couperi, I know just how important clean water is at ALL times for most snakes. Aside from our desert horned vipers, most of our snakes have fresh, filtered water available at all times. Many folks, and I am probably guilty every now and then, underestimate just how important it is to provide fresh water. Looking at a seemingly "fresh" bowl of water doesn't mean it is clean!

>>It always amazes me when I see a collection only to find lots of dirty water bowls or water that is stagnant. As a curator of a successful wildlife center featuring herps, and, breeding a modest sized collection of couperi, I know just how important clean water is at ALL times for most snakes. Aside from our desert horned vipers, most of our snakes have fresh, filtered water available at all times. Many folks, and I am probably guilty every now and then, underestimate just how important it is to provide fresh water. Looking at a seemingly "fresh" bowl of water doesn't mean it is clean!

I don't know about anyone else, but I've found it easiest to empty, disinfect, and refill a water bowl at the same time I'm going my weekly cage cleaning. Never had a problem.

-cat
-----
My collection and herp photography

www.lowergroundreptiles.net

Robert,

Your post is the most cogent consideration to date that I have read regarding dehydration in eastern indigos. I am very impressed. You are absolutely correct. So much so, that I cannot materially add to what you have said.

I want all indigo owners to carefully consider what you have written.

When I first obtained indigos, my friend told me: "Do not ever let them run out of water. If they run out of water for two days, they will die."

I didn't really know why, but he looked me in the eye, and I really got the message. So I have tried to let indigo caretakers know this as well. Indigos always need to have fresh water. It seems so simple, but it is life and death for them.

Another point you make is very important. When a snake dies, it is easily diagnosed with a pathogen such as a protozoan or a bacteria or a virus. But if you take a healthy snake and examine its blood and feces, you can often find all 3 of the above thriving in the healthy snake. I believe they are not the proximate cause of death, but, as you write, they are opportunistic pathogens. When the snake is compromised, when its immune system is compromised, some opportunistic and ever-present pahtogen may take over and cause great harm.

I am not adding anything new to what you wrote. I am applauding you for saying it so well.

For all snakes, hygene and water are important. For eastern indigos water is life.

robert seib
Link

Robert,

I remember you specifically stressed this point to me when I got Spud from you as a neonate.

By the way spud hit his growth spurt this summer and is doing very well…

Dear Robert,

Thank you for your kind words and supportive comments. I wish someone had told me several years ago that if an indigo goes two days without water, it would die. The cold stare technique apparently helps drive the point across. Indigos are more sensitive to water starvation than any other snake I have heard of.

Your reply indirectly brings up a question I have had. If cobras are truly immune to crypto, does that mean that they will continuously harbor crypto but it does no significant harm, or does it mean that their immune systems are able to rid their bodies of it completely? I'm not sure anyone truly knows this answer, but let me know if you have some knowledge of this.

Of course, in humans and other mammals, we can become infected by Cryptosporidium, but to all but the immunocompromised, our bodies are capable of ridding the organism entirely. Symptoms in humans can vary from flu-like to serious weight loss, but healthy people almost never die from crypto and our immune system rids us of the organism completely.

Robert Bruce.

One last thing, while I am thinking about it.
Robert made mention of renal failure being incurred, as a sign of dehydration. I find this to be absolutely true, and there are certainly ways to accurately diagnose such.
In acute renal failure, the glomerular filtration rate decreases over days to weeks. As a result, excretion of nitrogenous waste is reduced, and fluid and electrolyte balances cannot be maintained.
Subjects with acute renal failure are often asymptomatic, and the condition is diagnosed by observed elevations of blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and serum creatinine levels.
Most authorities define the condition as an acute increase of the serum creatinine level from baseline (i.e., an increase of at least 0.5 mg per dL [44.2 µmol per L]).3
Complete renal shutdown is present when the serum creatinine level rises by at least 0.5 mg per dL per day and the urine output drops significantly (oliguria).
Not all BUN and serum creatinine elevations result from acute renal failure. Cephalosporins and trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole (Bactrim, Septra) may cause acute renal failure as a result of interstitial disease, but these agents sometimes cause elevated serum creatinine levels simply by inhibiting the tubular secretion of creatinine without causing real damage to the kidneys. The BUN can be elevated in subjects with increased catabolism or those with gastrointestinal tract bleeding.

Jeff

What Robert, Jeff and Robert S. have stated here is critically important. I would have to say the probably 80% of snake deaths assigned to Cryptosporidium serpentis are misdiagnosed. Actual Crypto deaths are relatively rare in U.S. collections. When you have Crypto in a collection, you will rarely lose just one snake. It spreads through a collection like wildfire.

I have looked at numerous smears and stomach lavages from dead and dying (and severely dehydrated) snakes and and have actually positively found Crypto in clinical levels only one time in a White-lipped Python. In that case, probably 50% of the animals in that collection ultimately died with the same clinical signs.

Another thing that people often neglect is keeping fresh water available for gravid females. Water is even more critical for them than for males and non-gravid females. In gravid female Indigos, the absorbed calcium levels go beyond what would be normally considered fatal. If they don't have water, they can't metabolize that calcium and their kidneys will shut down in a matter of days. For some reason people sometimes assume that since a gravid female doesn't eat, maybe she doesn't drink so much either.

With hatchlings, sometimes they have a little difficulty figuring out the water bowl at first. I have found that most of them will actually drink from the end of a 2cc syringe. To make sure that they are getting sufficient water for the first few weeks, I offer them water this way. If they are thirsty, they will drink from the syringe with no problems. You don't need to shove the tip in their mouth our anything like that, just hold it to the front of their mouth and ease a drop or two of water out. They get the idea quickly. One of my breeder Sinaloan Milksnakes loves to drink that way. She'll sit there and take a 10cc syringe full.
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald,

I am not an expert on pythons, but I don't believe that they are snake eaters. I put forth the premise that indigo snakes may be resistant to crypto, as cobras are thought to be. The analogy here is that both are snake eaters and that snake eaters would be highly benefited by resistance to crypto. I take it from your own experience that you have never personally verified an indigo to have crypto. Am I right?

I have worried about hatchlings finding their water bowl when I have put it in the middle of the cage. The hatchlings tend to circle the perimeter of their cage, sometimes for long periods. They don't have the natural instinct to turn toward the center. So, I put the water bowl at one side of the cage. When they need water, and begin to hunt for it, they naturally circle and run right into it. This works every time.

Robert Bruce.

>>Dear Gerald,
>>
>>I am not an expert on pythons, but I don't believe that they are snake eaters. I put forth the premise that indigo snakes may be resistant to crypto, as cobras are thought to be. The analogy here is that both are snake eaters and that snake eaters would be highly benefited by resistance to crypto. I take it from your own experience that you have never personally verified an indigo to have crypto. Am I right?
>>
>>I have worried about hatchlings finding their water bowl when I have put it in the middle of the cage. The hatchlings tend to circle the perimeter of their cage, sometimes for long periods. They don't have the natural instinct to turn toward the center. So, I put the water bowl at one side of the cage. When they need water, and begin to hunt for it, they naturally circle and run right into it. This works every time.
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

Robert,
You are absolutely correct. I have never heard of or seen a verified case of Crypto in an Indigo Snake. I have only personally seem one case, and that was in a White-lipped Python. I actually think it is much rarer than it is given credit for.

You may very well be on to something. It may be that ophiophagous snakes have some immunity. I'm not exactly sure how that would work, because snakes don't pass on antibodies to their offspring in the way that mammals do. Mammals pass antibodies in the very first nursing with the Colostrum to give the babies' immune systems a "jump-start". Many snakes are naturally immune to venoms, but that is a different process and has nothing to do with antibodies. However, some species (notably Pythons) are much more inclined to be affected by Crypto than others. There has to be some reason for that. Ditto with things like Inclusion Body Disease and Paramixovirus. I know that there are studies ongoing in Florida with IBD and PMV, but I'm not sure what's going on with Crypto.

Gerald
-----
We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Jeff, and anyone else interested,

You are correct that there are blood tests that should be able to identify renal failure in snakes. Serum creatinine should be elevated in reptiles with kidney failure because the kidneys remove it from the blood. Urea, however, is not present to any significant degree in the blood of reptiles, because reptiles excrete their excess nitrogen (from breakdown of protein in their diet) as uric acid, not urea.

In mammals, urea is produced in the liver from ammonia, and is excreted by the kidneys. Urea is very soluble and that is why our urine is clear.

In birds and reptiles, excess nitrogen is excreted as uric acid. This is highly insoluble, and is why the urine of birds and reptiles is white. The pasty white sediment is uric acid.

There should be little or no detectable urea in the blood of snakes, with or without kidney failure.

Robert Bruce.