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Don Shores bred a bananna cal king from John Ruiz (large old time calif cornsnake breeder) and bred it to a Double Het female snow from Mark Bell. This produced the first Chocolate bananna. Then Don Shores bred his Choc bannana to a albino bannana female and produced 3 choclate bannanas and 3 DH's. This year Don produced 4.8 choc bannanas and 5 normal bannanas. The choc bannana is co-dominant since the amel is not het for chocolate.
I think they look like rotten bannanas and thats what they should be called.

Rainer,with all the different morphs out there now as well as everyone naming HYBRIDS I for one need more proof when it comes to genetics.I understand that pattern variation is inherited but I dont think of this as a morph.Marketing aside,how would the lineage you suggest sustain the arguement of a co-dominant trait?It is a varied line-crossing and recrossing can produce morphs,even NEW ones(though unlikely).But do we really need to NAME every neat looking snake?Cant we just accept it for what it is and understand that the liklihood of REMAKING that same snake with the same combinations of species and morphs is slim.To my knowledge there has been NO codominant gene found in colubrids so when one is even suggested it must meet more stringent criteria.By all means prove your case,Jeff

As of right now the albino banana that was bred to the chocolate banana has no chocolate gene in it. I think it is co-dominant but am not 100% sure. I think the mosaic cal kings is a co- dominant trait. I will breed the chocolate male to a normal wild caught female next year and hopefully know for sure. Don

Not a gene like most of us breeders USE.It may be like the motley/striped corns which are simply pattern variation.Mutation that happens RANDOMLY and is then heritable would be considered a gene,but these lines are simply captive bred for pattern which I dont consider a trait,no disrespect Don.I am still waiting for the first co-dom colubrid trait so forgive me for being OVERLY skeptical about your efforts.I hope you understand my critique,Jeff

**Not a gene like most of us breeders USE.It may be like the motley/striped corns which are simply pattern variation.**

Jeff, that is incorrect. In corns, stripe is a recessive gene. THAT IS A FACT. In cal kings, it is not recessive and is a pattern variation. There is a lot more to cal king recessive genes than people realize. A recessive gene is predictable. And soon we will have cal kings that are quadruple hets and NEW NAMES will have to be connected to these new cal kings that have recessive genes (not pattern variations).

I too have a Chocolate Banana from Don. Is it a separate gene than those already known in cal kings? We will find out soon.

Kerby...

Kerby,I was under the impression that if you bred a stripe to a normal you would get a strange mix of intermediate patterns.Not true?This to me would represent pattern variation not a co-dom gene.If some of the babies had stripes EXACTLY like the parent and some had normal patterns(no intermediates)THAT would be a gene.From those breedings and percentages you could figure out if there is/was a co-dom gene,correct?I will admit to being a little out of the loop concerning cal kings,but I am just getting rubbed the wrong way a little by EVERYONE wanting there stuff to be different--unique--and naming individual animals considering them morphs and not taking the time to breed it true first.I mostly deal with morphs now so I try and keep up with the latest lingo....but any help you can throw my way with new proven morphs by all means enlighten me! Always up to putting names with faces(pics of snakes)too if you can point me in the right direction.If I am wrong I stand corrected,thanks,Jeff

**Kerby,I was under the impression that if you bred a stripe to a normal you would get a strange mix of intermediate patterns.Not true?**

Jeff, this is true with cal kings, BUT NOT with corns. In corns, striping IS RECESSIVE.

**This to me would represent pattern variation not a co-dom gene.If some of the babies had stripes EXACTLY like the parent and some had normal patterns(no intermediates)THAT would be a gene.From those breedings and percentages you could figure out if there is/was a co-dom gene,correct?**

In cal kings, breeding stripe x stripe produces ALL Stripes. At least it has for me for hundreds of babies. And when breeding a stripe cal king to a banded, striping shows up immediately and will take over. You also get banded AND everything in-between LOL Striping, banded and aberrancies occur naturally in the wild in California (especially around Carlsbad). I have lived in Arizona since 1990 and all I have seen have been bandeds. There was a pic on another site that showed a cal king from Arizona with a little aberrancy. But subtle.

**I will admit to being a little out of the loop concerning cal kings,but I am just getting rubbed the wrong way a little by EVERYONE wanting there stuff to be different--unique--and naming individual animals considering them morphs and not taking the time to breed it true first.**

Agree with you there 100%. Just go look at the classifieds and you will see people selling "hypo" cal kings LOL What a joke! I did see one ad for a hypo, that looked hypo (Merker stock). But that would insinuate that it is a recessive gene and predictable. Hypo IS A RECESSIVE gene. I'm just not convinced on the Merker strain. It could be hypo. I am convinced on the other hypo ads - they are pure BS! Just like the ads that state cal kings are het for High White, striping, etc.. - pure BS!

You will also see ads (cornsnakes) that say their corn is het for snow, AND that is incorrect. A Snow corn is a snake that is displaying 2 different recessive genes (anery & amel) at the same time. Snow is a combination of two genes. But soon in cal kings there will be triple and quadruple hets. And we need to come up with names (like they did in corns with "snow" that will accurately describe a cal king so that everyone knows how it was made.

Next year I will be producing cal kings from parents that are double-hets (albino and melanistic - Mendota). They will produce (1/16 odds) an Albino Mendota. This year I produced more double-hets (Lavender & Albino). Next year even more combos....

Recessive genes in cal kings that I have:
Albino
Lavender
Mendota & Davis (melanistic)
Ghost

In a couple of years, starting with next year, what are we going to call a cal king that exibits:
Albino & Lavender at the same time?
Albino & Mendota at the same time?
Albino & Ghost at the same time?
Lavender & Mendota at the same time?
Lavender & Ghost at the same time?
Mendota & Ghost at the same time?
Albino, Lavender, Mendota at the same time?
Lavender, Mendota, Ghost at the same time?
Albino, Lavender, Mendota, & Ghost at the same time?
And if the Blue-eyed (Merker) is a diiferent gene, then add that to the combinations LOL

JUST GETTING STARTED !

It gets confusing when people say that they have a Snow cal king, when in fact all they have is a High White. In most species, Snow is a reflection of anery/amel like I mentioned above. In cal kings, the SAME albino gene is responsible for:
Albino High Whites, Albino Bananas, Blizzards, etc..

Kerby...

Why am I dreaming of pea plants and fruit flies.....?
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

I never said it was a new gene. I just know what I bred, a normal female that was double het for snow to a banana cal king from someone else. The chocolate came out. It is not melanistic but a lighter version. I said I thought it was co-dominant but I will not know for sure until next year. The reason was I bred the chocolate male to an albino banana and expecting to get normals I got some normal bananas and some chocolate bananas. I just call them what they look like. Anyway they are different and The cal king group is kind of a mess. I saw people calling lavenders in Daytona chocolates and when I breed het lavenders I get lavenders, albinos and normals. Don

Kerby,it seems to me that when a morph is named for the first time then someone gets to name it.But when the same combination of genes in a different species gets a DIFFERENT name....just not necessary.HYBINO,OPAL,are used,whitesided albino or lavender albino--OBVIOUS.THese new "EXTREME"hondos are what I believe to be a lavender albino hondo,hence no need to make up 2-3 new names for each unproven line.The cal kings are a different problem with about 3-4 pattern variants.Everyone wants to be different,that is why we keep these types of animals to begin with.Just my opinion,Jeff

So if the extreme hypo hondurans are really lavenders then why has there not been a third morph produced being the hybino extreme n(?)... Or is that "hybino name only apply to t- albinos X hypos?

arrghh!

that the lav albino(extreme)is stemming from the HYPO line.THere is a major problem I think here because of distinguishing between each single morph and the double gene morph that may already exist without anyone recognizing it.Its real simple,lol, just start over with another species or ssp,lol. Jeff

And we don't need to start all over when the cal king industry is just getting started. It is an easy process of determining recessive genes by elimination or affirmation. We just need to agree on terminology.

Lavender is not hypo, nor is albino.

Kerby...

Jeff,

Whether we understand the pattern of inheritance of a phenotype or not, it is still genetic. Heritability of all these morphs (whatever silly name they get) is genetic simply because ALL heritable traits are genetic, by definition. Genes are the mode of inheritance.

Arguing that a particular trait isn't governed by a gene doesn't really make sense either. Some phenotypes (snow corns, for example) are obviously not governed by A gene, they are governed by the interactions of TWO genes. But these traits are still genetically heritable.

As for the arguement that something is a pattern variation and not a gene, the pattern of any snake is determined by genes. There are exceptions to this of course (heat induced striping, etc), but in general, the color pattern of a snake is determined genetically.

There are generally a number of genes that govern this so striping, albinism, and amelanism in corns are all the result of mutations in separate genes, but all these genes influence pattern.

Therefore, there can be no doubt that this cal king has been shown to be heritable and therefore the pattern is genetically determined. This doesn't mean we know the mode of inheritance. It could be codominant (imcompletely dominant) but it also could be a polygenic trait or something more complicated than this.

As for the statement that there has never been any documentation of codominance in snakes, I'm afraid that isn't true, unless your arguement is one of semantics. Codominance occurs when both phenotypes are expressed equally and both phenotypic characteristics appear in each het (A blood x B blood = AB blood). When the phenotype is intermediate between the two homozygous phenotypes, the pattern is referred to as incomplete dominance.

So banding in calkings is technically an example of incomplete dominance (a snake can't be completely striped and completely banded!). That's why heterozygotes show varying amounts of striping banding. So striping in cal kings is codominant/incompletely dominant. The pattern of inheritance is the same, no matter which title you use.

I don't have the article anymore, but there was a paper published in the journal Genetics in the early 1980s by Zweifel discussing the heritability of striping in cal kings.
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Chris Harrison

Chris,I am looking to isolate SINGLE traits that are isolated on single gene pairs.Pattern variation is a trait that for the most part is multi-gene oriented.As far as inheritance its the incompleteness of the mutation that leads me not to consider it a "genetic trait"though I understand it is heritable.Its my contention that co dominance has not been proved in colubrids yet,and I am just trying to validate this arguement,not cause anther one,lol.Jeff

Striped Graybands are co-dominate as I have produced them. Half the clutch immediately came out with varying degrees of striping including one that was 80% striped when bred to a completely normal looking female or male. HDEAN