Reptile & Amphibian Forums

FIRST OF ALL, MY SNAKES DO NOT EVER RUN OUT OF WATER! It simply does not happen here! Second I change it almost daily, so it never goes nasty. I am fully cognizant of the fact that ALL animals must have CLEAN water AVAILEABLE at all times. How many snakes must one KILL before one realizes it, and fixes the problem permanently?! I'm sorry, but to let multiple indigos die for not giving them water,...well,...nuff said.

Next, I know that a lot of you are looking at this whole thing from your own unique perspectives, in that , we all have our own experiences to draw from. And therefore we have those who will second guess everything I have said,...BUT,...The vet did a full necropsy, or autopsy, or what ever you care to call it. Samples of all tissues and fluids, stomache contents, and so forth were sent to an independant lab, and cryptosporidia was positively identified. Furthermore, I have been doing a bit of research on this subject, and based on what I have learned about it, applied to all the individual circumstances of this case, it all fits. I think I even know where it came from. I believe it came from a rodent. The supplier's name and the individual facts will not be disclosed at this time. I am not going to go into all the details, but suffice it to say, I have gone over this matter repeatedly with a fine toothed comb, from every possible angle, and when all the facts are known, crypto fits. Period.

Do not trick yourseleves into believing that this cannot happen to you. It can. I take IMMACULATE care of these animals. It happened to me. All it took, was two or three mice, which had been killed, but not frozen yet. Absolutely no more fresh kills for these animals. Only bottled water by reverse osmosis filtration, and many other changes for me. Also, I now know exactly what to look for! Don't take a float trip down denile. It ain't no river in Egypt! Doubt me if you must, but I will follow the evidence.

This has been a wake up call for me! I would hope that in that respect,... I am not alone!I would urge all to read up on crypto! I have! Check out the following website:
www.lpsi.barc.usda.gov/awpl/cryptosporidium_prevention.asp

This site has been very helpful, and informative. There are many more sites out there too numerous to mention. This was the best one that I found. Or just do a web search on google like I did. Just do it!!!

My theory is agreed to by the experts I have confered with. But it is only a theory for now. All those mice have since been frozen, thawed, fed, crapped out, cleaned up, and burned. [freezing kills crypto] I cannot go back and prove anything. But I live here, and I alone care for these animals, and for now at least I alone know exactly what happened to Cloyd. Weather or not you believe it is entirely up to you. Later,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

First of all, I can attest that Tony has been nothing short of
OBSESSIVE about making sure he did everything as perfect as humanly possible in caring for his indigo snakes over the past 2 years.

Nuff said there.

As for Crypto...I hate to get all paranoid here, but you know if it's really out there...it's probably in every pet store, at every reptile show...in fish, in frogs, in reptiles, birds in all pet stores...you name it. All it would take is ONE live mouse fuzzy from a pet store.

If it's as contagious as it seems to be...then it's all around us in the captive animal world.

I think we should learn how to do the tests for this ourselves (as breeders and hobbiests) As I understand it, cryto does not appear on a normal fecal, you need to do something called a
acid fast stain test.

A vet can teach you do prepare the acid fast stains on slides, then you can send to a lab.

I'd like to start finding out how much of this is really out there.

I have no doubt anyone who is going to proceed with the process for permits, and pay the going rate for a Drymarchon, is going to take very good care of the animal.
My earlier post was to poke fun at the hysteria C. parvum can evoke, especially on this forum, much like the hysteria created when an individual handled a wild D. c erebennus some months ago creating cross pathogen contamination paranoia, though there is absolutely nothing humorous regarding the loss of a D. c couperi, and Tony, I truly am sorry to hear of your loss.
The truth of the matter is, C. parvum is all around us, and it can be found within most drinking water systems right here in the US, as the pathogen is quite resistant to most current methods of disinfection.
Also, EPA standards for drinking water were not explicitly written to cover the removal or eradication of C. parvum. Though, most major cities, especially those utilizing surface water, such a rivers and reservoirs, utilize UV irradiation as part of the disinfecting process, which has proven effecting against C. parvum.
In short, C. parvum exists in virtually every body of surface water there is, though it is only going to become problematic, if other underlying problems exists, which allow the pathogen to run amuck.
As Tony pointed out, there is some very good information regarding this topic available to anyone wishing to take a moment and search, though I especially like the CDC site.
One item I would like to point out, is the constant reminder you will find, regarding C. parvum, is the fact that those at risk are immunocompromised individuals, there again, indicating there must be another underlying factor, before the pathogen should be considered harmful.

Jeff

>>I have no doubt anyone who is going to proceed with the process for permits, and pay the going rate for a Drymarchon, is going to take very good care of the animal.
>>My earlier post was to poke fun at the hysteria C. parvum can evoke, especially on this forum, much like the hysteria created when an individual handled a wild D. c erebennus some months ago creating cross pathogen contamination paranoia, though there is absolutely nothing humorous regarding the loss of a D. c couperi, and Tony, I truly am sorry to hear of your loss.
>>The truth of the matter is, C. parvum is all around us, and it can be found within most drinking water systems right here in the US, as the pathogen is quite resistant to most current methods of disinfection.
>>Also, EPA standards for drinking water were not explicitly written to cover the removal or eradication of C. parvum. Though, most major cities, especially those utilizing surface water, such a rivers and reservoirs, utilize UV irradiation as part of the disinfecting process, which has proven effecting against C. parvum.
>>In short, C. parvum exists in virtually every body of surface water there is, though it is only going to become problematic, if other underlying problems exists, which allow the pathogen to run amuck.
>>As Tony pointed out, there is some very good information regarding this topic available to anyone wishing to take a moment and search, though I especially like the CDC site.
>>One item I would like to point out, is the constant reminder you will find, regarding C. parvum, is the fact that those at risk are immunocompromised individuals, there again, indicating there must be another underlying factor, before the pathogen should be considered harmful.
>>
>>Jeff

Jeff,
The pathogen here is not C.parvum, but C.serpentis. C.parvum actually seems to respond to some of the antimicrobials normally used for other coccidians, such as Albon. However, C.parvus does not seem to cause clinical symptoms in reptiles. C.serpentis seems not to respond to any antimicrobials in use today.

One other thing...it seems that the use of some of the 3rd generation Cephalosporins such as Ceftazadime in an already dehydrated snake can cause even more rapid dehydration followed by renal failure and death. This can somewhat mimic the course of Crypto. One of the telltale signs of true C.serpentis infection is the hard "lump" in the stomach region on the infected animal. This is virtually always present.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

There are at least three forms of crytosporidium that I know of, the mammalian form, the reptilian form, and the avian form. They are not thought to cross over and infect animals not in their category. What this means is that snakes should not be expected to get crypto from chicken that was not frozen, nor for that matter would they get it from rodents that were not frozen.

This also means that humans should not fear a threat from crypto passed to them from their reptile collection.

The cryptosporidium in tap water is probably most commonly the avian form, as birds fly over and land in open bodies of water (and defecate into it of course). Next most common in tap water would be the mammalian form, from rodents, coyote, deer, and the like. The threat for mammalian crypto in tap water is therefore greatest after rainfall, usually necessary to wash significant quantities into the water supply. Beavers could add mammalian crypto directly to the water.

The reptilian form of crypto would likely be the least abundant in tap water.

Robert Bruce.

I am reading this and I have to raise a question. Over the years I have had the opportunity to maintain (in a zoo)several w/c Eastern Indigos and (at home) w/c Black tails and Unicolors. Also a pair of Texas Indigos. All were very healthy animals and (aside from some nose rubbing)never showed health problems.

I am left to wonder that maybe all this hypersensitivity to disease might be due to a genetic weakness as a result of the very limited gene pool that c/b Eastern Indigos come from.

Speculation?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I would be inclined to agree with Frank. I think it may be a plausible explination. Although the window of opportunity in this particular case was quite narrow, it happened none the less. I have been keeping wild caught, and captive born snakes and such for about forty years now, and I never had anything like this before. Also, this monster has thus far, at least, NOT shown it's ugly mug in any of my other animals, who live in the same room, same house etc. This is my first attempt at couperi, and BAM!! Out of the blue, here is a monster. Couperi are the only species in my collection, who's gene pool has been cut off from the rest of the population. I think it would be reasonable to assume, that this had something to do with it. No real evidence other than that, exept a gut feeling.

It was mentioned that this stuff can be in our water. I now buy bottled water which has been treated by reverse osmosis. As this gets it out of the water where chlorine, flouride, and conventional water treatment will not.

I am by no means an authority on the subject of crypto,... But,...I know more now than I did before! And I have made it part of my lifes mission to know everything I can learn about it, and pass it on to you all. My research is not complete by a long shot. I have read what has been posted, wrote it down, and now I will consult the orb of wisdom. As far as the different testing methods go, I am going to purcase a microscope, and whatever else I need, and learn to test REGULARLY myself. Then I will know for SURE!!! While I'm at it, maybe I can learn to identify other bad stuff as well. One thing is for sure, they picked the wrong guy to mess with!
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>I have been keeping wild caught, and captive born snakes and such for about forty years now, and I never had anything like this before.

Here's the thing that sticks out in my mind... You've been keeping various snakes foralmost 4 decades, about as long as I've been alive, without this type of mishap.

Once again, you said it!!! Thanks Doug!
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Doug, I am glad you put up this post because now I don't have to. But let me maybe restate what you have said. We have to accept some deaths amongst our captive bred population. Not all of the animals we produce will be fit to survive.

In the wild, there is normally a steady-state population of various species. What that means is that the numbers of animals are not going up or down, but staying steady, at least in rough numbers. If this is the case, then for every adult, reproducing pair of easterns, on average, only one pair of babies from them will reach adulthood and reproduce themselves (otherwise the population would be going up or down). This is sobering. If an adult pair of indigos produce an average of forty eggs over their lifetimes, then only two make it to adulthood to reproduce. The other thirty eight meet some deathly fate. This is a five percent survival rate to adulthood. Your "guess" Doug, is probably not far from the truth.

If twenty five to fifty percent of our captive breds die and don't reproduce, and they are the least "fit," I don't see any problem with that. In fact, we don't want to maintain and proliferate unfit genes and traits in our cb population do we?

Robert Bruce.

Dear Tony the snakeman,

You seem to take some offense at my post, and I don't know why. When I was seeing deaths amongst my collection of easterns, I suspected crypto. This, unfortunately led to more deaths, not less, because I was on the wrong track. Only when I tried to reevaluate the situation and not have "tunnel vision" did I come up with the right cause. The message here is that if you are locked on to one particular cause, and you are wrong, then you are doing nothing to alleviate the real cause, and the deaths may continue.

You answered one of my questions clearly. Your eastern that died had water continuously. So, my diatribe on water deprivation may not apply to you. That's fine. But I believe that it is important to get the word out and to keep it out that indigos need water daily, or death will ensue. If one person learns from this and one unneccessary death is prevented, then I will be happy.

You did not answer the other questions I had. Was the diagnosis of crypto done with the IF assay or the acid fast stain. The acid-fast stain is unreliable. Was this performed by a competent lab (preferably a human pathology lab) or an incompetent lab (most veterinary labs)?. Was a side by side test done of stomach tissue from a healthy animal? Without these things, I would not put faith in the diagnosis of crypto.

There are other easy ways to cause death that can occur to cb indigos, and I will post them later. Some of them (I will bet) have not been described before and will raise eyebrows.

Take care, Robert Bruce.

I have not seen crypto in my animals yet (hopefully never) but Fry shows some pics of snakes with enlarged abdomens that he says is from crypto, anyone seen this, glad to know freezing kills crypto, I've been worries about infected food sources, how long a time is necessary for sterilization?

Freeze for at least 90 days in air sealed packaging if you’re concerned about pry/feeders. This should eliminate any problems with parasites or viruses. Most pry items bought frozen are euthanized / frozen quickly and sold. I have a rodent laboratory supplier 7 miles from my home. You can’t even get in the building without showering, scrubs, and a mask. I have to wait outside for my feeders because I have reptiles.

Also freeze the pry animal immediately after you euthanize it. Helps eliminate bacteria build up by rapid decomposer. Mark your bags with the date time group.

Thaw quickly in warm water to moderately warm water. Feed immediately once the pry is completely thawed. Helps eliminate bacteria build up brought on by rapid decomposer.

Hope this has helped you.

Sorry man, no offense. Now worries. Sometimes I go off on a tangent.
Any way I am still trying to get answeres to these questions from the vet. Iv'e been out of town for a few days, but beleive me I will find out! And I will be sure to let you know.

The problem I face is that I am not an expret by any means nore do I claim to be, and I know that all of you know more than I, so it's very difficult for me to know what to beleive, when any given number of experts are telling me any number of different opinions about the same subect. Although, I really do very much appriciate all this information, and am learnig a lot, which is my primary reason to be here. Later,
T.
-----
"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>FIRST OF ALL, MY SNAKES DO NOT EVER RUN OUT OF WATER! It simply does not happen here! Second I change it almost daily, so it never goes nasty. I am fully cognizant of the fact that ALL animals must have CLEAN water AVAILEABLE at all times. How many snakes must one KILL before one realizes it, and fixes the problem permanently?! I'm sorry, but to let multiple indigos die for not giving them water,...well,...nuff said.
>>
>>Next, I know that a lot of you are looking at this whole thing from your own unique perspectives, in that , we all have our own experiences to draw from. And therefore we have those who will second guess everything I have said,...BUT,...The vet did a full necropsy, or autopsy, or what ever you care to call it. Samples of all tissues and fluids, stomache contents, and so forth were sent to an independant lab, and cryptosporidia was positively identified. Furthermore, I have been doing a bit of research on this subject, and based on what I have learned about it, applied to all the individual circumstances of this case, it all fits. I think I even know where it came from. I believe it came from a rodent. The supplier's name and the individual facts will not be disclosed at this time. I am not going to go into all the details, but suffice it to say, I have gone over this matter repeatedly with a fine toothed comb, from every possible angle, and when all the facts are known, crypto fits. Period.
>>
>>Do not trick yourseleves into believing that this cannot happen to you. It can. I take IMMACULATE care of these animals. It happened to me. All it took, was two or three mice, which had been killed, but not frozen yet. Absolutely no more fresh kills for these animals. Only bottled water by reverse osmosis filtration, and many other changes for me. Also, I now know exactly what to look for! Don't take a float trip down denile. It ain't no river in Egypt! Doubt me if you must, but I will follow the evidence.
>>
>>This has been a wake up call for me! I would hope that in that respect,... I am not alone!I would urge all to read up on crypto! I have! Check out the following website:
>> www.lpsi.barc.usda.gov/awpl/cryptosporidium_prevention.asp
>>
>>This site has been very helpful, and informative. There are many more sites out there too numerous to mention. This was the best one that I found. Or just do a web search on google like I did. Just do it!!!
>>
>>My theory is agreed to by the experts I have confered with. But it is only a theory for now. All those mice have since been frozen, thawed, fed, crapped out, cleaned up, and burned. [freezing kills crypto] I cannot go back and prove anything. But I live here, and I alone care for these animals, and for now at least I alone know exactly what happened to Cloyd. Weather or not you believe it is entirely up to you. Later,
>>T.
>>-----
>>"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Tony,
I don't think anyone would suggest that you don't take the best of care of your animals. I think that Robert was just pointing out that water deprivation is a killer of Indigos, not suggesting that's why yours died.

However, I'm not convinced that Crypto actually killed yours either. Snakes don't just roll over and die one day from Crypto after being asymptomatic the day before. Also, just because Crypto was found in the stomach tissue of your snake doesn't mean that's what killed it. It could have very well been that the mammalian or avian form was present (introduced from mammalian or avian food items, or from the water). That won't kill a snake. C.serpentis is the species of Crypto that does that. It generally takes a while for that to happen, too. It begins with regurgitation, followed by a fairly rapid dehydration and refusal to feed. A large hard lump is always present in the area of the stomach. Crypto accumulates in the stomach of snakes and in the intestines of lizards. It usually takes from one to 3 months for a snake to die from Crypto from the onset of symptoms. Also, you will rarely lose just one snake. Crypto is fast-spreading and generally will take out a large portion if not all of a collection once one snake dies from it.

I don't think it was anything you did or didn't do, but unfortunately I don't have any suggestions as to what it might have been. I don't know the details on how your snake presented. From what I read in your original post, he went from apparently healthy to dead in a very short period of time. I don't know what symptoms you noticed first or how it progressed.

Gerald
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

The whole process of his death took nearly a year. It began with a funky looking stool, and then he regurged an entire meal. He went to the vet with a fecal sample that day. The vet diagnosed a bacterial infection, and gave him a shot. We went home, and his stools got better, and he stopped regurgitating. But his appetite was markedley decreased, and he actualy grew almost a foot, but never gained any weight.

I am still reading all this and keeping an open mind. I have tried twice now to get an answere from the vet as to what lab did the test, and what test they used. Still no answere. But I won't stop until I get an answere. I will let you all know when I find out.

Keep up the fire! I am learning a lot! Thanks,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>The whole process of his death took nearly a year. It began with a funky looking stool, and then he regurged an entire meal. He went to the vet with a fecal sample that day. The vet diagnosed a bacterial infection, and gave him a shot. We went home, and his stools got better, and he stopped regurgitating. But his appetite was markedley decreased, and he actualy grew almost a foot, but never gained any weight.
>>
>>I am still reading all this and keeping an open mind. I have tried twice now to get an answere from the vet as to what lab did the test, and what test they used. Still no answere. But I won't stop until I get an answere. I will let you all know when I find out.
>>
>>Keep up the fire! I am learning a lot! Thanks,
>>T.
>>-----
>>"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

If he regurgitated only once, then ate at all without regurgitating then it almost surely was not crypto. Did you notice a large, hard visible lump in his stomach? If not, then it definitely was not crypto. I've never heard of a confirmed case of Cryptosporidiosis in a snake that did not present with that lump. Also, when a snake actually has crypto, once it progresses to the point of regurgiatation, that snake will not keep a meal down, and will eventually get to the point where it won't eat at all. Once the snake goes off food it will dehydrate quickly and death follows very shortly.

It would be interesting to know exactly what was in the "shot" the vet gave him, and what exactly was he treating for? There are some drugs that will cause a progressive renal and liver failure in snakes (Indigos seem particularly susceptible to many drugs) and that can cause a "wasting away" effect. Were his uric acid discharges greenish at any point? What happens is that because organ function is decreased due to the action of the drug you get a buildup of uric acid crystals in the liver and kidney tissues which causes those organs to start to shut down...and then that starts to compound the problem because the kidneys can't effectively flush the uric acid anymore. The more crystals that deposit, the less efficiently the organ functions. It may be that the vet actually correctly diagnosed the problem at first (possibly entamoeba, giardia, or something along those lines), but treated with the wrong drug. Probably the correct drug for that particular bacteria, but the wrong one for the snake. In that case, he might actually eliminate the bacteria (which explains the snake stopping the regurgitation and the stools looking better), but destroyed the animal's kidneys and liver.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson