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My main question is... i have seen in the other forums people talking about the difference between morphs and hybrids... Now, i am by no means an expert, but when you cross say... a ball and a blood... or a retic and a Burm, people say it is unethical because they are two different kinds of snakes.. when in all actuality, and you break it all down, they are in the same kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, and genus. the only place they differ is in the species.
Now turn the tables and put boas on the table... people seem to have no problems crossing a columbian and a hog, or a hog and a peruvian... or basically any other arrangement you can think of. if you break it all down again, they are the same in kingdom, phylum, class, order, family and genus.. and like the pythons, they are different species.... It seems to me that people look at it as a form of short-cut to the different color morphs instead of selective breeding with two snakes of the same SPECIES to naturally pull out thier own genetic potential. The most common arguement i hear when dealing with this subject is that "well, a ball and a blood would never naturally breed because they are from two totally different places and continents". well... last i checked, i dont think there are any naturally occurring breedings between a columbian and say... an argentinian in nature. If i am wrong, please correct me.
Hybridization is hybridization no matter how you look at it... same continent or different continents.... you are either for it and do it or against it and dont do it... But sorry to say, if you do it by making excuses for yourself like "they are from the same continent" while at the same time saying other hybrids are wrong, sorry, but isnt that a little hypocritical? Just wondering your thoughts on this......

YES IT IS WRONG NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT BUT IN SOME INSTANCES THAT YOU MENTIONED IE: HOGGS AND COLUMBIANS THEY ARE THE SAME SPECIES JUST DIFFERENT LOCALITIES NOT THAT ITS RIGHT BUT ITS A BIT DIFFERNT THAN BREEDING A BLOOD TO A BALL OR SO FORTH

Actually, I have no problem at all with crosses as long as people label them as such, but when they cross to make a great looking snake, which most can appreciate it as.... they should say HOW they came about it rather than labeling it as a "NEW MORPH" of whatever they choose just so they can make a buck. And as far as the Hogg goes.... the actual species is under debate... that is why some label it as an Imperator and others label it ssp. (sub-species) So actually, until someone actually forks out the money to DNA test to be sure what species it actually falls into, nobody can claim they know for sure if it is in fact an imperator or a sub-species of such.
As for what you said... the blood and the ball cross... how is that different? they are in fact basically the same... they are close enough to breed and people have done it sucessfully... jsut like the green tree and the carpets... people have done it... so they must be close enough to be able to breed... does it still make it wrong?
Like i said... i have no problem with people doing it... it isnt like these snakes are getting re-introduced into the wild, and it isnt like any of our snakes are going to be the LAST one of the kind and be relied upon to restock the wilds. I just like the double standards out there that make it OK for some people to do it.... and for others... well, its just wrong... lol thats just my issue with the whole thing.

As always this topic will always stir up some comotion. Everyone will have their own opinion why they are for or against crossing, why its right, why its wrong... etc etc.

That being said, I personally do not care for crosses, but at the same time.. their have been some amazing crosses produced. I rarely ever pay attention to the hog crosses.. or the argentine crosses etc etc... i figure just leave it alone.. breed hog x hog, suri x suri etc etc. Most people are just so caught up in trying to produce the next big thing... that those in favor of crosses go with the flow, and the Purists either close their eyes, or pay no attention to it.

If the animal is PURE (if there is such a thing now a days hehe).. I say leave it be.

Since this is a boa forum let me stick to boas when I give my humble opinion to this topic.

Why does breeders cross differenct localities of boa constrictor or even different subspecies?

There are at least five reasons in my opinion:

1. For the sake of money
(They want to make the fast buck by creating something new that doesn't exist so far. A major part of the U.S. boa community is starving for extraordinary looking and never-seen-before boas and many are willing to spend much money on it. The boa morph who is fancy today is outdated 2 years later. So everything must be tried to create new unusual looking boas)

2. Incapability
(There are breeders who have a couple or more true boas but the damn critters refuse to breed stubbornly. OK, for the sake of success (and money) just use a colombian male for the Suriname female and 6 month later she will give birth and the young can be sold)

3. No suitable counterpart available or within the means
(Unfortunately a true suriname male costs more than a common boa...)

4. Lack of knowledge connected with a poor vision

(One can not blame someone to breed a Hog Island boa to a colombian boa when he/she doesn't know that these are different localities and he/she has such a poor vision that he/she is almost blind)

5. They don't give a damn
(Yes, such breeders also exist)

This enumaration doesn't claim to be complete.
Boa constrictor

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The #1 Boa constrictor site in the world wide web

>>Since this is a boa forum let me stick to boas when I give my humble opinion to this topic.
>>
>>Why does breeders cross differenct localities of boa constrictor or even different subspecies?
>>
>>There are at least five reasons in my opinion:
>>
>>1. For the sake of money
>>They want to make the fast buck by creating something new that doesn't exist so far. A major part of the U.S. boa community is starving for extraordinary looking and never-seen-before boas and many are willing to spend much money on it. The boa morph who is fancy today is outdated 2 years later. So everything must be tried to create new unusual looking boas)
>>
>>2. Incapability
>>There are breeders who have a couple or more true boas but the damn critters refuse to breed stubbornly. OK, for the sake of success (and money) just use a colombian male for the Suriname female and 6 month later she will give birth and the young can be sold)
>>
>>3. No suitable counterpart available or within the means
>>Unfortunately a true suriname male costs more than a common boa...)
>>
>>4. Lack of knowledge connected with a poor vision
>>
>>One can not blame someone to breed a Hog Island boa to a colombian boa when he/she doesn't know that these are different localities and he/she has such a poor vision that he/she is almost blind)
>>
>>5. They don't give a damn
>>Yes, such breeders also exist)
>>
>>This enumaration doesn't claim to be complete.
>>Boa constrictor
>>
>>-----
>>The #1 Boa constrictor site in the world wide web

SIKE!!!
IM just teasin, this issue is one that i dont get to worked up on.
to each his own.

have fun!!

mike

I've heard all this before and I agree I wouldn't cross a hog with columbian. ect.. But it pisses me off to go to the person's web-site telling me I shouldn't do and find surinam x peruvians or surinam x albinos. Don't tell me not to do it when your doing it to brighten up the albino's or what ever your reason is. Bottom line is the money for most people. Or to produce something new before the next guy.Practice what you preach.
Bryan

I hope my post didn't imply I was pointing fingers at anyone that wasn't my intent. I recently breed a male of unknown origin to a female columbian, with the intent on keeping some of the offspring to breed to each other and a female back to the male to see if his color is genetic. The male is a black and gray. The result was being told I was wrong for doing this. I should have breed the male to a female just like him the only problem is I've never seen a female just like him. In fact I've never seen another boa just like him. So how else do you go about finding out if what ever he is is genetic?
Bryan

Except for the island forms, all the boa constrictors in South America DO exchange genes. Unless some physical, or behavioral barrier exist separating two populations then gene swapping will occur. Of course a mexican and a peruvian aren't likely to copulate in the wild, but eventually genes from one population may make it to the other. It is just slow enough that each population has been able to develop its own phenotype.
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to each his own !!! i personally wouldnt do it . in my opinion theres nothing like the true beauty of "TRUE" guyana, surinam, brazilian, peruvian, colombian etc .. you get where im going with this .. i personally am getting back into snakes after a 4 year lay off due to financial reasons .. and im shocked and suprised at some of the crosses some people are making just to say its something different . i saw one breeder crossing argentinans with colombians , central american with colombian, hogs with colombian etc .. and charging some ridiculous prices for animals that are wayyyyyy less attractive than either of the ones being bred together !! whats the point ?
i understand if a guyana and a surinam are bred together cause of lack of knowing where really is the origin of the snake.. i mean all that seperates em in the wild is a river i believe.. this is more believabla .. as a matter of fact i just bought an awsome redtail sold to me as a guyana.. but imo looks way more like a surinam .. the colors . the peeks, the whole snake in general !!! what do i plan to breed it too ? i think if have one of my guyanas thats ready to breed and one of my surinams at the same time , i think ill go with the surinam .. i honestly dont think what i was sold was a guyana but i dont doubt that it was exported from there .. since they are so close and probably most of the populations are crossing up in the wild anyways naturally .. but imo to breed a colombian with or any other race with a race that is impossible to breed in the wild imo is wrong and i honestly wouldnt pay more than i would a pet quality snake that i have no intentions of breeding or seriously doing anything serious with... but like i said, to each their own and im not gonna put any one down for doing so.. and like i said before .. imo there is nothing more beautiful than exceptional specimens of the true redtail !! just my $.02

I think there's a lot of talk of propriety or impropriety in the hobby when it comes to folks and the reptiles they keep. I think this type of thought process misses the point.

If we think of herpetoculture as the beginning of the domestication of reptiles, then breeding anything to anything is fine, as long as the produced animal has the traits we want it to have.

If we think of herpetoculture as the personal collection of something produced in nature, then the animal already has the traits one wants it to have and breeding it outside it's own subspecies (or even locality) gives it traits not wanted.

As individuals, we view the hobby more from one of the above viewpoints than the other. Neither viewpoint is right or wrong but when someone keeps and breeds reptiles with the viewpoint that conflicts with anothers views, it feels wrong to the other.

True domestictation will never be achieved with reptiles. The only use they will ever have for us, the only important trait, is to sit in their cages looking pretty. Since all we're doing is making pretty things, we might as well accept the views, and breeding projects of others.

As for me, I see the hobby as a collection of things produced by nature, with no real room for improvement. With all the crazy success various breeders have had, I have yet to see a morph or hybrid that is nicer looking that most typical locality specifics. However the hype is contagious, exciting and really a lot of fun. It's like being excited about "Beanie Babies".

I don't think that keeping and breeding morphs or hybrids is wrong, but it really does seem like "Beanie Baby" or "Cabbage Patch Kids" fever. In the long run, someone will make a lot of money selling them, someone else will spend a lot of money buying them. However, when the hype wears off, natural types will still be cool.

In other words, hybrids and morphs are nothing more than expensive toys that WILL go out of fashion. I see nothing wrong in enjoying them now BUT one must realize that in a few years, you'll say to yourself "Why did I think that was cool?"... and that's ok.

Doug Taylor

NP
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NO BEAUTY LIKE THE BEAUTY OF A TRUE REDTAIL !!

....

TRUE RED-TAIL RULES!!!!

Man you really have a great way of looking at things. Good points and well supported....Wanna take my upper division writing exam for me this semester?

P.S. This is a good example of natural beauty....not my snake by the way...