Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Unfortunately, the word social can be defined in many different ways. And Yes, most students learn about behavior and animals social abilities from mammals, hoofed stock to be more accurate.

So to think reptiles are social like mammals, is of course, in error. They can only be social as it pertains to reptiles and more accurately monitors.

While I surely have read, this and that, about whether they are or are not. That reading leaves a lot to be explained. Its this unexplained part thats confusing.

Again while I can read monitors are not social or indeed anti-social. That does little to explain why I see monitors being social, day in and day out. Please understand, on a daily basis.

Of course, there are those that can explain away the pope or explain away evolution. It does not explain away what we see.

For instance, today, let me move over here and repeat, today, I photographed this.

This is a sexual pair, the female is gravid with her second clutch of the summer. She is now gravid, breeding occurred 7-10 days ago. WHY ARE THEY TOGETHER The female can avoid the male at any givin time, the enclosure is full of holes, the same holes they use every night. We have see these types of monitors when the female does not want the male around, they will simply go down a hole and not come up until hes gone. Our job is to recognize these times and move the male. Fortunately, these times are rare.

With that said, breeding or the act of copulation is not defined as social. ITs an act of procreation(hmmmmmmm, not sure I agree) If thats the current belief, fine. But why is the male staying with the female and not breeding her? In my desert dust filled brain, its something about being social. you know, being together, for no apparent reason.

Next, yesterday, I reported on varanus.net, about a reproductive event with my lacies. They were introduced, they bred, they combated, they bred, they combated. This was the first time I have witnessed this with lacies, as I mentioned, I have witnessed this with Croc monitors.

So today, I took this photo.

They have been sitting like this for hours. They do not appear stressed. Please consider, this cage, has two outside compartments, and a indoor compartment. If the female wanted to avoid the male, she could of at any moment. Even during the combat events, the female presented herself in the middle of the cage, not trying to hide at all.

The fact is, both of these females, could avoid the males at any time. The questions is, why arn't they?

While the naysayers will say this and that. They do not see "this" to actually interpid for themselfs, for the reality of the event. They only see monitors in dissaccord. You know, ones that do not get along. Surely that happens, and we see that too, at times. Our job is to have them get along. You see, its the ones that get along and act like this that produce offspring. Not the ones that constantly fight. Again, the naysayers have not had any produce offspring, therefore have no grounds for comparision.
I hope some find this interesting, we see this stuff and more, on a daily basis. We also show this stuff on varanus.net. I would show it more here, but there is entirely too much fighting. Fighting is not allowed on the other site.

May I ask for some input, do these individuals look stressed, and if so, how. Thanks FR

a picture of a pair of crocs.........there are two cages side by side with an opening between them....and the crocs hang out together a lot............billy

Ours did that too. I guess the people who deny this happens don't put doors between the cages.

I think they have the one species, one cage mentality. You know, your going in that cage forever and for all time.

I do not do that, I give them series of cages, depending on need. Thanks for the pic. FR

I was told that savannahs aren't social. These 2 stayed together all the time. They had their pick of hides and basking spots but were almost always together. It almost looked like follow the leader sometimes. 1 would bask, the other would climb on and bask too, 1 would take a dip or soak and the other would join in.
Maybe they wouldn't have acted that way if they knew how to read.

Scott

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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I used to have 2 blackthroats that did not seem to mind each other at all. They would lay on top of each other (either one on top and bottom), sleep together, and seem to just hang out. However, these two were not adults at 2.5 feet long, but were both males.

The only time I had problems was when I fed them. One of them would wait untill the other had a mouse in its mouth and had finished shaking it, then run over and grab it. This one would always win the tug-of-war battle and take the food the other one had worked so hard to "kill". I seperated them.

They always got along great untill feeding time.
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Ed

There are water dragons, chameleons, and monitors in my jungle room.

Frank, I'm new to this monitor business, as you well know, but I can't help but wonder if the reason that the people working in the field who do not see monitors hanging out together is that they are are seeing monitors who must stake out a territory to be able to get enough to eat and to meet their other needs. Any other monitor coming into that territory is a potential competitor for the available resources. When you have well cared for captives who are well fed and who do not have to argue over food or other needs, they have the luxury to be able indulge what seems to be a desire to be social.

Just a thought. Your comments and anyone else's are welcome, of course.

Leslie

From the way my albig looks across the room to the sav's enclosure, I think they might get along.
Oh, never mind, Fluffy is just hungry again. lol

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

of course that has to play into it, to some extent, but unfortunately, I have found and photographed many monitors together in nature, even different species. More that needs to be explained. hahahahahahahahaha.

The point is, normally solitary type animals do not progress better in groups, they generally stress out. As These two paper experts would agree. And that is precisely the point, ours perform better in pairs and groups. Which sorta throws their theories out the door.

The reality is simple, our(this is a captive monitor forum) monitors are in cages, and for them to say, thats wrong, thats wrong, when in fact, they do great in such a way is a bit silly to me. The fact is, we see more behavior then they ever have, we show more behavior then they have ever shown and show healthy monitors and have lots of babies. We show mating, nesting, and hatching, they show nothing. Now, how can that be wrong? Well its not wrong for most of us, but it may be wrong for them. The real point is, Mark does not keep monitors and Sam has not done anything other then keep a few, much like most here. So how is he right? Thanks FR

I see your point. Thank you.

Actually, I am more familiar with the writings of the 'experts' on horses. A lot of what they say is impossible, I see every day with my horses. The experts say that horses cannot reason, but I've seen mine reason and even problem solve on a daily basis. I even have a horse that will use a stick to scratch his belly where he can't reach otherwise. A tool using horse??? Not possible, the experts say. And a lot of what they insist cannot work, like keeping stallions together, works fine, as long as there are no mares around.

I've already broken some 'rules' with lizards. I keep male crested geckos together with no problems. I just make sure the females are out of their sight, and give them enough room and enough food to coexist.

Still, I read everything I can get my hands on on anything I'm interested in. The more I read, the more questions I have answered. But I admit I do not blindly believe everything I read.

Leslie

Nice post, I like hearing that. I would love to see your horse use a stick.

Yes, there is lots to learn.

I have seen an advanced behavior, I will post it on varanus.net. go have a look. Thanks FR

Great post on varanus.net. Do they load it with dirt intentionally to save the water, or, once they have filled it with dirt while 'excavating,' have to reason how to get access to the water? Whichever, it's certainly fascinating. All my sav ever fills his water with is monitor bombs. lol

I'll try to get a picture of Cody with his stick. He doesn't do it often, and usually as soon as the horses know we're watching, they stop what they're doing and come over for a scratch or a horse cookie. (I don't spoil them...much!)

Leslie

There are a couple of things that stick out to me.

1) The females are gravid, there is no need for mating, yet the males are still there, and the females do not try to run them off. And yes for the goofy folks a female monitor is more than capable of telling a male to get out, if we don't respond, I have found gravid females to be very unforgiving, very willing and very capable of running off much larger males. But there is none of that shown there.

2) They aren't looking at you. When one is dominating, they are typically in a very excited state, and practically anything seems to grab their attention. While you may be light footed, I know they fully well know you are there, yet none are interested and/or concerned. The ones being submissed will take advantage of anything to scurry away. Yet none of that either.

Truth is, I don't think a pic (or three) really shows it all that well (but it shows some things), because it's the interactions day after day, that really make it obvious there is more going on. (I do think you said that to some effect.)

But if you want to know what first pops into my head, is those are some real nice monitors in real nice cages. My monitors envy your monitors.

--Robert

I remember watching a nature show once.
There was a pair, perenties I believe, could be wrong, it was some time ago.
The male guarded her while she dug a nest. They stayed by the nest and even went as far as teaming up to chase off a dingo.
Why would they do that?
Was he wanting to mate somemore?
Was there an abundance of food for them to share?
I don't know but I found it fasinating.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

This is one thing that seems to be ignored, captives are not starved, and generally have more than enough food to fulfill their needs. I do think that when monitors get very hungry that it gets harder to keep them together, this has been mentioned before, and I've seen things that seem to agree with that.

I think food and presence of a male (scent alone is enough, so separated in the same house makes no difference) has an effect on them cycling, but it is not controllable, they just seem to cycle more often and more consistently.

A little story, I started off with three little ackies, they grew up appeared to be 1.2, I got two clutches of eggs (which were bad) and then nothing for many months. I had some problems with the male (I believe it was a physical injury, but there is no decisive answer), and he needed to be put down, turns out the male was female. The two females looked ok but in my opinion started to degrade (they were hardly alive, spending all of their time deep under the substrate and barely eating at all), but they still looked good, and when I did see them seemed to be normal. I then got another 1.2 group of ackies that were kept in another cage. These produced eggs in a couple months and started cycling fairly regularly every 6-9 weeks. But my original females in the other cage suddenly began to eat alot stronger and put on weight and started looking very conditioned. Because I've seen one too many females die with ova, I swapped the male and got eggs in a month or so. Clearly this is too small of a sample to mean anything, but I found it interesting.

I do know that if I don't feed very much, the cycling seems to take a long time, whether that is they are not cycling, or the cycle is slowed (and having an ill effect on health), I don't really know, but I believe it's a slowing that is very hard on them (not enough energy).

--Robert

I think captives are starved most of the time.

And that is simple to explain. Take it up top and I will explain. Thanks FR

Thats exactly what i was hoping for. An observation, based on your experience. That is what you gave.

One little thing, If you look at the crosses, one is looking left and the other right. Also, you can barely see, but their eyes are half closed. Thats a common scanning position, The upper eyelids are a bit transparent, look at yours. They use the lid to protect from UVa and UVb which causes blindness. Perenties have this too.

As you mentioned, they have no concern for me. Which is not the same as with the lacies, both of them are looking at me, taking their picture.

Another point I was hoping would come up is, a picture is a slice in time, much like a paper. An open mind would ask what happened before and what happened after the pic was taken, before leveling a decision.

For us as keepers, its not about a slice in time, its about all the slices put together. Thank You and you are welcome to keep playing, as I have only begun to play. FR