Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am afraid I miss this entire analogy. You know, that they attempt to recreate a more natural envoirnment. And How you insinuate, that we do not.

As in your post below, you use me has an example of the ones that don't.

You thread below was about mertens, so I will stick with that species.

Here is a pic of our female nesting.

She is nesting on a sandy beach. She has 32 square feet of land for nesting, two feet deep. She has the sun(real UV and real litecycle) as a litebulb. she has only 20 square feet of pond to swim in, two feet deep. She has hollow logs to bask over the water and to go in if needed. She also has an indoor part to go if the weather if not good. The indoor part has lites on a timeclock.

Now follow me if you will, I went to the persons house who breeds mertens in Frankfurt. He kept his mertens in a small glass tank(compared to our setup) they had a piece of wood that floats on the water, they had some sort of lite bulb, and a little box for hiding and nesting attached to the side of the glass tank. His mertens bred and appeared fine.

My question is, How is my setup not more natural then this europeans????????How is it not what Sam is preaching. Remeber, we did this before sam was around. Please specify. Thanks FR

Gorgeous Frank, thanks. They are on my wish list someday for sure.

andrew

Unfortunately, the word social can be defined in many different ways. And Yes, most students learn about behavior and animals social abilities from mammals, hoofed stock to be more accurate.
So to think reptiles are social like mammals, is of course, in error. They can only be social as it pertains to reptiles and more accurately monitors.
While I surely have read, this and that, about whether they are or are not. That reading leaves a lot to be explained. Its this unexplained part thats confusing.
Again while I can read monitors are not social or indeed anti-social. That does little to explain why I see monitors being social, day in and day out. Please understand, on a daily basis.
Of course, there are those that can explain away the pope or explain away evolution. It does not explain away what we see.-fr

I will fist address your comments of 'social behaviors' from below: Social behavior and its evolution there-of are derived the help an organism, any organism, from protozoan 'Volvox' - a semi-socially inclined single-cell cluster to higher mammals to live more successfully and pass on their genetic materials to generations there-of....however the 'conditions' under which social behavior permiates an organism and makes it solitary to gregarious, which you are stating have the following guide-lines (of which you may/may not agree with, but you need to understand these guidelines apply to all organisms equally):

(From Barlow & Silverberg, Ed., 1980:130-131 - and these guidlines have not wavered since then either)
1. restriction of suitable habitat or resources to a small number of spatial areas can lead to a passive accumilation of individuals in that area (= conditions of captivity).

2. Predator pressures: can promote either widely dispersed asocial living or dense gregarious coloniality (increase population density and inclination for gregarious behaviors).

3. pattern of dispersion is critical to prey selection. When food selection is thinly but equally dispersed so are the predators, and consequently the reverse also applies whereby if food is locally clumped and abundant, predators clump and are abundant (= komodo monitor feeding stations).

4. In dense groups of animals, the chances for build up and transmission of parasites/disease increases causing a more dispersed form of spatial organisation among the organisms = they 'spread out'.

5. The last condition favoring gregariousness is the importance of social information. Gregarious living allows observational learning and culture transmission of adaptive solutions to survival/prey selection/kin selection etc...Such conditions allow for rapid changes in behavior patterns, allowing them to adjust to short-term ecological changes and conditions.

One case in point, when a trio of V. niloticus (or solitary V.
griseus) go crocodile nest raiding as demonstrated by Cottom (1926), Carpenter (1923) one V. niloticus will look out for moma croc while other two excavate and prey on eggs, and they will rotate so all get a meal. Is this social or cooperative learning in prey selection?

For a species to be social, the 5 points listed above must be applied, and a 'degree' of sociality can be determined by the number of postulates agree with 'wild' observations. Captive conditions are articficial and cannot be applied to these postulate of social behavior as they only apply to points #1 and most importantly #5 is not exercised by varanids - which of course would be culture, and varanids do not do this. Many mammals do, even some birds.

Some of the postulates above could be used and are seen in captivity, but does that make the animals social on an innate/genetic level? No it does not - it is merely their ability to adapt to different conditions. V. griseus are basically solitary animals, but find the same female and the same nest in the same locality annually - but that does not make obligate social animals. No it does not.

What you see in your enclosures may be and can be misleading, unless it can be tested time and time again, methodically, and applied in this format, then you might have something there - but to see two animals arm over body, as I have seen this before when males guard females (ritualized combat -> reproduction behavior) does not mean they are social but merely protecting their gene pool between them from other males/nemesis/enemies.

Ethology (animal behavior) is not as clear cut as biology and chemistry, as those laws, rules, always are the same every time they are applied - a constant every time and do not change with time but as has been seen above with postulates #1-5, ethology is an explanation of adaptability of an organism to its environment, and is assessed under biological laws and rules in a very didactic forum.

Now for your second points on V. mertensi. Were you referring to the post reply I made to rsg about V. mertensi and V. acanthurus or something else? I did not mention your name anywhere else on this forum? You did make reference to me somewhere in association with Sam Sweet, and yes, I stick by his assessments, and yes we think alike about alot of things as we have a similar (although mine is not as advanced) academic training...and we enjoy varanids alot, and know alot about them, inside and out (vrs most herp keepers who only know the 'out').

You discuss Bernd Eidenmullers enclosures at his home, and his many many successful breedings...as you have said yourself, breeding the varanids is easy, and it is, but incubation is hard. His enclosure was/is NOT a tiny aquarium, but a 400 gallon enclosure. Yes they have logs to sit atop and basking lights, and so do yours...so what is your point?

I said in one of my posts, these german and dutch vara-keepers have been breeding their animals for decades, and backing it up with published literature accounts EUROPEEIDENMULLER, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1991a-b, 1992a-e, 1993a-b, 1994, 1995a-c, 1996, 1997a-b, 1998a-b; HORN, 1976, 1977a-b, 1978a-b, 1980, 1981a-b, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991a-c, 1993, 1994a-b, 1995, 1997a-c; WESIAK, 1992, 1993a-c, 1998a-b.

North America: Arizona: -0- :1 paper mentions breedings, but no specific details. Now it is not always anyones inclination to publish what they do and nothing wrong with that what-so-ever, but the word of mouth changes with time (aka 'telephone game') and data misquoted, misconstrued and so on, so it has little worth or merit where posterity and time is concerned: the published record however, does! So even if you xerox your notes and sent them to me, I could and would put into a written format and help you get them published, as I have done with alot of people - no problem. then alot more people benefit from them and you do not have to repeat yourself as much as you do on these forums. The offer is there...I 'think' I do recall you saying anyone was invited to see your set up and so on, and you shared 1 V. acanthurus data with me which is in the files, but recinded your offer when we became nemesis/adversaries of opinions in varanid hsuabdry ideologies. No biggy there. I hate/cannot tolerate hot weather for more than a few hours anyway.

ok you breed animals, fine, no problem with that ever.... and you say you have thousands of offspring world-wide....how come I know -0- persons who have any of your offspring, ever? Ive been around the varanid circles for 20 years and never known an actual single person/herp keeper who has/had one of your offspring? I am not doubting your words, but pondering this mystery, but only a little, as my time is directed to other things varanid with more interest and enthusiasm.

I am delighted we can 'discuss' some things without the usual banter we direct towards one another - it is more pleasant. But are we really discussing, or just making opinions? Are we conversing here, being 'social' as it were, to our respective asocial tendencies (haha)?

And as preferring European ideologies, I am decended from Northern and Southern Europe going back 1000 years, and favor the temperament, educations, monarchy, and most laws there...but I do abhor the lousy weather and dark days of Scandinavia, so I live in Koo-koo California where its weather/climate is only matched by 40 miles on the Libyan coastline, and prefer not to dwell in the latter - I don't like dates or ginger beer.
mbayless

Mark wrote
Posted by: mequinn at Fri Aug 20 16:48:05 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

You just said it yourself - it is NOT the same - one requires more water than the other....it is these differences where you, fr and others differ with Sam and I I think - maybe it is little things, but those little things add up. And yes, you have bred them that is fine and great - but have you considered how much 'different' they might be if the mertens were fed more fish than mice? How would your V. mertensi do if not provided sufficient water as you state they need? They would not fluorish well would they - nope. They are different, have different niche levels, and requirements, no matter how subtle they may be, they are significant, even if in a small way.

I believe the fr is referring to me. I really find it odd how I enter your world, without intention. Why can't you simply talk about monitors. Your cursade is boring and fruitless, as I will go on breeding monitors.

Second, you seem to confuse complicated social behavior with simple social behavior, we are only looking at simple behavior. Again the point is, we are looking at. As we are looking at it. Its not being read about, its being seen by us and others, and its commonplace.

You also fail to understand the many directions knowledge is spread. While the Europeans did and do publish, we americans perfer to comunicate in many other ways. Like what we are doing right now. To publish is great, but not availible to all. The internet is great, and is also not availible to all. Which means, who cares. hahahahahahahaha

You like the published world and that is wonderful. We live in a world where we can comunicate on a day to day basis. I find this one more enjoyable. A paper is a slice in time, as it stops until another paper is written. This means(the forum) is updated day to day. On our forum we update the progress of a number of monitors. Of course we cannot do that for all of them, but a few, also we have been following the progress of several wild lizards. How is that bad?

I also believe, I had a large impact of positive monitor husbandry, here in the states, while those in europe had a great impact there. I believe that is how it should be.

Which leads me to ask this very inapporiate question, In the last few weeks, you have written on this forum, you do not like american politics, or american education system, or american medical system. And lastly, the american way of keeping monitors. With that in mind, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Go back to europe.

I will say, I do not care for some of the above, but, I am american and Love my country. I also see wonderful parts of many countries i visit. In this case, you seem to be the rude one.

Lastly, you avoided my question as you always do, I ask this last and I want an answer, how is the way I keep mertens less natural then the europeans? Thank you and answer this last question. FR

Yes I wrote that...and apparently you did not read my post clearly, succinctly or with full understanding of what I posted...read it again. It is not "what we see" that is argued, but its interpretation, and that is where your misguided. Read it again, and you will see nowhere do I post about simple social behaviors vrs complicated social behaviors = that is hilarious!! There is no such thing - all behaviors are neither simple or complicated - but responses to their environments and to conspecifics/environment in their domain. You see varanids next to one another in an artificial environment, and expect this to be a 'wild' natural scenario when you yourself have said captivity is an artificial environment. Wild behaviors can be observed in captivity, yes, but not all of them are natural, or are they?? This is a thin line of contention, and as the postulates state, can be determined, along with a multitiude of other parameters (that I do not think you are aware of - and it would take a considerable amount of reading to absorp), but merely seeing animals together does not EQUATE they are social? It can be "suggestive" of such behavior, but does not imply it strickly - that is too easy (= your phrase, 'simple social behavior'?). Read the postulates and think about them frank...

Are varanids gregarious? No. Do they learn from one another in a social grouping? no. Are they clustered together in high population densities in wild? No. Do they learn and adapt? Yes.
Do they mate with conspecifics/relatives? (probably-) No. Do they share nesting with conspecifics/other animals? Yes; does that make them social? No. The list goes on and on, and it would take a considerable time to do this and don't feel like it, but go ahead if you like? Back to your comment: "We see it"; the adjective being 'see'...Yes you see them together, but is this always associated with another behavior? Breeding/courtship behavior?? If it is so, then it is apart of reproductive behavior, and can be examined in-depth on that basis - and I will ask others who are more familiar with this than either of us too about wild populations of several Varanus - for in your ideology, what works for one should/is applicable to the entire Genus, right? Is that what you think?

I did answer your question about Bernd's scenario and yours: READ BELOW: Yes I did write that, and see your name there after looking at it again - missed it the first time -

You discuss Bernd Eidenmullers enclosures at his home, and his many many successful breedings...as you have said yourself, breeding the varanids is easy, and it is, but incubation is hard. His enclosure was/is NOT a tiny aquarium, but a 400 gallon enclosure. Yes they have logs to sit atop and basking lights, and so do yours...so what is your point? You both have V. mertensi, you both breed them, and both your animals are healthy, so what is this point? I do not understand your question?? Do I think one is better than the other? You get the same results so where is the beef? Did I know of your specific husbandry techniques for your V. mertensi? No - I do not keep tract of such things anymore, as in the www, 'things' or truisms change from a day-to-day basis and I tire of keeping track of such things - again it is an issue of time, interest and priorities. I do this for fun, not business.

As for my preference for many things European, I do, but I like alot of things American too - and I did not state those, and that was (perhaps) an oversight. I too Love this Country, and enjoy being here with the many freedoms we have. I just want for USA what we can be, and not what we presently are...We can be and do better. I see alot of current dogma that has been seen before in History, and it has always been a disaster in the making for said Country, Gov't., and their peoples...and I do not want to see it happen here - do you? Of course not.

Furthermore, yes communication in the present is fine, but as I also said, "FOR POSTERITY AND FUTURE HERPERS" publishing it instills it into a format anyone anywhere, with the use of www can access anytime = what is wrong with wrong with that?? You can find any journal, almost any publication and get a copy of it within minutes, days, weeks perhaps but is in hard copy and can be reviewed at your liesure. Communication on these forums is fine, immediate (within a short time frame), and that is fine, but it does not hold up to time, the future, whence all of this forum materials is gone, passed over and lost. Yes, live for today the present, but writing it down lives for tomorrow and the next day....we just have oposing opinions of the same coin I think.

mbayless

I will first address your comments of 'social behaviors' from below: Social behavior and its evolution there-of are derived the help an organism, any organism, from protozoan 'Volvox' - a semi-socially inclined single-cell cluster to higher mammals to live more successfully and pass on their genetic materials to generations there-of....however the 'conditions' under which social behavior permiates an organism and makes it solitary to gregarious, which you are stating have the following guide-lines (of which you may/may not agree with, but you need to understand these guidelines apply to all organisms equally):

(From Barlow & Silverberg, Ed., 1980:130-131 - and these guidlines have not wavered since then either)
1. restriction of suitable habitat or resources to a small number of spatial areas can lead to a passive accumilation of individuals in that area (= conditions of captivity).

2. Predator pressures: can promote either widely dispersed asocial living or dense gregarious coloniality (increase population density and inclination for gregarious behaviors).

3. pattern of dispersion is critical to prey selection. When food selection is thinly but equally dispersed so are the predators, and consequently the reverse also applies whereby if food is locally clumped and abundant, predators clump and are abundant (= komodo monitor feeding stations).

4. In dense groups of animals, the chances for build up and transmission of parasites/disease increases causing a more dispersed form of spatial organisation among the organisms = they 'spread out'.

5. The last condition favoring gregariousness is the importance of social information. Gregarious living allows observational learning and culture transmission of adaptive solutions to survival/prey selection/kin selection etc...Such conditions allow for rapid changes in behavior patterns, allowing them to adjust to short-term ecological changes and conditions.

One case in point, when a trio of V. niloticus (or solitary V.
griseus) go crocodile nest raiding as demonstrated by Cottom (1926), Carpenter (1923) one V. niloticus will look out for moma croc while other two excavate and prey on eggs, and they will rotate so all get a meal. Is this social or cooperative learning in prey selection?

For a species to be social, the 5 points listed above must be applied, and a 'degree' of sociality can be determined by the number of postulates agree with 'wild' observations. Captive conditions are articficial and cannot be applied to these postulate of social behavior as they only apply to points #1 and most importantly #5 is not exercised by varanids - which of course would be culture, and varanids do not do this. Many mammals do, even some birds.

Some of the postulates above could be used and are seen in captivity, but does that make the animals social on an innate/genetic level? No it does not - it is merely their ability to adapt to different conditions. V. griseus are basically solitary animals, but find the same female and the same nest in the same locality annually - but that does not make obligate social animals. No it does not.

What you see in your enclosures may be and can be misleading, unless it can be tested time and time again, methodically, and applied in this format, then you might have something there - but to see two animals arm over body, as I have seen this before when males guard females (ritualized combat -> reproduction behavior) does not mean they are social but merely protecting their gene pool between them from other males/nemesis/enemies.

Ethology (animal behavior) is not as clear cut as biology and chemistry, as those laws, rules, always are the same every time they are applied - a constant every time and do not change with time but as has been seen above with postulates #1-5, ethology is an explanation of adaptability of an organism to its environment, and is assessed under biological laws and rules in a very didactic forum.

Now for your second points on V. mertensi. Were you referring to the post reply I made to rsg about V. mertensi and V. acanthurus or something else? I did not mention your name anywhere else on this forum? You did make reference to me somewhere in association with Sam Sweet, and yes, I stick by his assessments, and yes we think alike about alot of things as we have a similar (although mine is not as advanced) academic training...and we enjoy varanids alot, and know alot about them, inside and out (vrs most herp keepers who only know the 'out').

I said in one of my posts, these german and dutch vara-keepers have been breeding their animals for decades, and backing it up with published literature accounts EUROPEEIDENMULLER, 1985, 1986, 1989, 1990, 1991a-b, 1992a-e, 1993a-b, 1994, 1995a-c, 1996, 1997a-b, 1998a-b; HORN, 1976, 1977a-b, 1978a-b, 1980, 1981a-b, 1982, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991a-c, 1993, 1994a-b, 1995, 1997a-c; WESIAK, 1992, 1993a-c, 1998a-b.

North America: Arizona: -0- :1 paper mentions breedings, but no specific details. Now it is not always anyones inclination to publish what they do and nothing wrong with that what-so-ever, but the word of mouth changes with time (aka 'telephone game') and data misquoted, misconstrued and so on, so it has little worth or merit where posterity and time is concerned: the published record however, does! So even if you xerox your notes and sent them to me, I could and would put into a written format and help you get them published, as I have done with alot of people - no problem. then alot more people benefit from them and you do not have to repeat yourself as much as you do on these forums. The offer is there...I 'think' I do recall you saying anyone was invited to see your set up and so on, and you shared 1 V. acanthurus data with me which is in the files, but recinded your offer when we became nemesis/adversaries of opinions in varanid hsuabdry ideologies. No biggy there. I hate/cannot tolerate hot weather for more than a few hours anyway.

ok you breed animals, fine, no problem with that ever.... and you say you have thousands of offspring world-wide....how come I know -0- persons who have any of your offspring, ever? Ive been around the varanid circles for 20 years and never known an actual single person/herp keeper who has/had one of your offspring? I am not doubting your words, but pondering this mystery, but only a little, as my time is directed to other things varanid with more interest and enthusiasm.

I am delighted we can 'discuss' some things without the usual banter we direct towards one another - it is more pleasant. But are we really discussing, or just making opinions? Are we conversing here, being 'social' as it were, to our respective asocial tendencies (haha)?

And as preferring European ideologies, I am decended from Northern and Southern Europe going back 1000 years, and favor the temperament, educations, monarchy, and most laws there...but I do abhor the lousy weather and dark days of Scandinavia, so I live in Koo-koo California where its weather/climate is only matched by 40 miles on the Libyan coastline, and prefer not to dwell in the latter - I don't like dates or ginger beer.
mbayless

I posted two pictures of monitors doing something. You sir, tell me what they are doing. That is the point, period. Your illusionary confusion is goofy.

Two monitors, one's arm around the other, they do not have to be there, there are plenty of places to avoid the other, WHAT IS IT? Thank you FR

"illusionary confusion" - thats a good one; you ask me if I wrote a post. I replied I did. You showed me a picture of two Varanus arm-over-body, and I told you about solitary vrs gregarious behaviors, and the conditions there-of - I told you about what you see in the picture, and what it actually is/'might be' - what I see is two varanids arm-over-body, side-by-side. That is what I see. What is it? It is most likely courtship behavior/pair bonding/nest guarding behaviors.
Are you up on Hans-Georg Horn's papers on ritualized combat and courtship behavior papers? You will find some of your answers there. You tell me you have 'all the papers' although they say little to inform you - read (Horn's) papers again.

You say varanids are are social because of a body posturing - ok. Go ahead and say that. That is fine...but it may not be what it looks like...and that is what I was/am saying. I have told you here what it looks like to me, and it looks like reproductive/pair bonding behavior, which is different from gregarious/social behaviors for a solitary species as varanids and other non-mammalian apex predators generally are.

Have you noticed that the sex-lives of non-mammalian apex predators is virtually unknown? it is because nobody sees these animals in clusters or groups unless large prey resources are available (i.e. 50 polar bears feeding on a dead Minke Whale in North Pacific), or a group of white-sharks feeding on seals/sea lions at 'stations' keeping clear of one another in a hierarchy protocols scenario - like komodos do, but none of these animals have been seen breeding in the wild (except komodos because of their space constraints), only in captivity, if that. Yes, that is not your point, but it provides you insights into other animalia that do this very thing and for the same reasons...I have given you my answers as best I can with the given information (a picture - but this one says only 500 words, not a 1000), and you have not answered mine? Your turn...and try not to reply in a agitated/frustrated/condescending manner. I would appreciate that...you go from 'varanids are social' to a photo depciting two varanids together, and ask is this social or not = it is not alwas as simple/clear cut and easy as that, especially with an empirical science (biology) and a psychological aspect of that empirical science (- Ethology). Yeah that does not answer your question either, but maybe the answer isn't there? Maybe it is there with more information warranted? One photo does not prove all clear cut and dry, if it did, sea-serpents and big foot would be an accepted zoological entity, and they're not, because zoology empirical format does not allow it to be so without 'proof' and 'proof' is what you seek - you say the photo is proof - it is only suggestive of it at this point and time (to me), and I 'might' need more information to make a better judgement, but exactly what I am not sure....I do not pretend to know all about Ethology, but I am familiar with it, varanids and assorted other things biologica, but I need more information if you want a definitive answer 'yes' or 'no', and I cannot give you that with the afore-mentioned.

mbayless

Mark, I ask you to tell me what and why, yet all you do is quote others from other papers. Pieces and parts, do not add up to a whole.

I need to make this clear, those two pics are not others, they are indeed them. so What are they doing.

If I asked Georg Horn, I am sure he would have a very good interpitation of what they are doing. But unfortunately, I am asking you. So that means you must answer in words from your experience. Not what you think others said.

Again all you practice is avoidance, answer a direct question, directly, not with another question. This forum is about animals we keep, these animals are doing something, what is it? Not Georgs or Bernds, these monitors.

You tend to forget, I and others here, have our own monitors, our job is to understand what our monitors are doing, and to allow them to do more. Not what other fine keepers wrote about.

I guess the real difference between us is simple, you probably would rather look a pretty girl in a magazine, then be with a not so pretty girl. I would without a doubt rather be with a not so pretty girl. The reason is simple, she is real and not paper.

How about this, describe what you see in those pics. Because if you do, it will give all of us and idea of what you see. Are you afraid of that? FR

p.s. you should really understand, I have the toys to play with, and you can only read about them. To bad. Wait, stop the presses, I just had a epiphany, My concern is with flesh and blood monitors, doing flesh and blood things. Your concern is paper monitors living up to papers. Hmmmmmmmmmmm we will never agree. the olde doers and readers battle.

I told you what I thought it was...and you do not accept that answer - that is as far as I am going to go with it - and as for your other comments, they are merely banter from a frustrated man (you), and make me laugh....thanks for the laughs.

mbayless

Please try again, as I could not decipher what you were saying. Remember I am a simple man, looking for simple usable answers.

So forgive me and give me a strait forward answer without all the this and that. Remember, I may be a dumb person, thats simply gifted at keeping monitors. Thanks and try again, right under this post. FR

You do understand, its not important whether I am dumb or smart, the result is the same. I have lots of success, as you see. Oh by the way, thanks for all the attention, my requests for monitors triple everytime you do this stuff. Thank you.

So do mine....those serious keepers who are really interested do anyways...

I feel you should describe what you see. If you want, you can always tap out, because I have hundreds of these photos. Heck I will take new ones everyday. I know everyone will have fun, but you. thanks anyway, FR

Hy Frank,

I don't think anybody should create one's arguments on the setup of one special person. I know about who in Frankfurt you are talking about. He may be successful in breeding monitors but his setups are a totally different thing (as far as I know). And again you are right - your setup is much more natural then any of his will ever be.
But on the other hand Mark is right: It seems that for Europeans creating a setup that is as natural as possible is much more important than for the guys in the USA. The best proof are the pictures on the kingsnake gallery. The Americans call setups beautiful that would never be installed (mostely) in Europe. Things like fake grass (plastic) and that stuff can not even be bought in most reptile stores.
Another argument is that when authority controls take place only "natural" setups are approved.

But we all know that there are good (like you) and bad examples out there everywhere in every country.

Best regards,

Timo
Link

Hi Nakor, I have seen beautiful and successful setups in the states and Europe. Also as pioneers, both keepers in the States and folks in Europe have been world first breeders for many species. How did we in the states ever get the chance to breed any species first? We did.

Lets take a neutral view, In reading Matt Vincetts book, it seems all he did the whole darn book was complain that both the americans and the europeans are breeding all their(ozzies) monitors first. Now we are on the same side of a discussion, with oz on the other.

If you check the records, which is what Mark is suppose to be about, several species that are being attributed to the europeans were first bred in the states by Dallas zoo(gilleni) and Storrs by Dick Bartlett. Those were in the early 80's. So again I wonder.

Please do not get me wrong, I respect anyone who produces good results. Thats why I have discussions with Mark or even Sam, they talk, without the benefit of results. Reading all the papers in the world, will not give results if all you do is talk about them(the papers) Papers are information to be applied. and the key verb is applied. You do not understand monitors by reading papers, you understand monitors by working with them. Reading papers my help you get over hurdles faster. But they surely do not represent the whole of a living monitor. Again, papers do not represent the whole of a living monitor

As I mentioned, people in Europe keep their monitors in a varity of ways, some good, some not so good. As a breeder, I get calls from folks all over the world, and I hear the same great questions and the same dumb questions, from folks all around the world. The sad part to me is, why are the bad questions coming from Europe is they have such a great understanding.

Lastly, none of that is the point, Mark simply uses Europe as a deversion from the point. I ask him questions and he does not answer, he simple, cites a paper or two, and babbles about something else. He simply has no experience with monitors, not by todays standards, of both americans and europeans. Which always leads me to the point of why he acts like he does. I once stayed with a fella in Germany, Hans Deter Philipenin(sp) Who had a tremendous collection of books and papers. He also kept a few monitors. I could tell he did not have a feel for living monitors. But that did not matter, he did not say he did. He simply enjoyed the whole monitor experience. We got along well. Do you see, Mark and Sam enjoying anything, or helping others enjoy anything? How odd. FR

I am not surprised at your rebuke, aka you're frustrated with my replies, as I havegiven you the answers, but you clearly do not understand them....these references I quote are all they are, to fall back on for a 'reference' and help explain certain things that have been brought to topic - and help give you a backround in things you clearly do not comprehend or know much about... that is what this forum is form, sharing information.

You may continue to twist my words around all you wish - you do it all the time with people who do not ally to your concepts and wishes, and (especially) your ego, and that is fine.

I told you what I thought, and you did not like it. I too have had varanids for decades, but unlike you, I have shared quite abit about them with others in written format so they can understand some things about the animals in front of them...and continue to get requests for this on a weekly basis.... so relax....its only fun here.

mbayless

You still refuse to talk about monitors, if I do not understand you, then its your job as the teacher to find a way to allow me to understand, kinda like we do with monitors.

While I may not be the sharpest tack in the box, your explanations have not even come close to what I know they are doing in those pics. Remember, I am privey to the, before and after of the pics. So of course I think your fooling around.

About egos. I believe its yours thats the problem and always has been. If you ask anyone here, I do not force anyone to keep monitors like I do. I only respond to questions. You know, If someone asks me(fr) how I did this or that, I respond, with how I did this or that. I believe that is accurate. I do not respond how so and so, did this and that. Or what paper said about this or that. If they wanted to know how so and so, did it. They would have asked so and so. Or read the paper. But thats not the reality. I do stuff, people ask stuff, and I respond with what I see here. Again, what I see here. If its right, great, if its not, time will reveal that. But so far, only positive results have been revealed. As at this time, we have many species past 7 generations, in our facilities. Not the F-3's your so proud of the europeans for. I do find it funny that your willing to pit me against whole continents. I was be very important.

You and Sam are the one who push and yell and harass me and others to follow your thinking of how monitors should be kept, yet, you do nothing with monitors. In that I will not back down, and see no reason why I should. I show real monitors doing real things, and you talk theory. I will be the defender of real monitors. thank you FR

I have seen you talk, in '96 in San Diego along with 50 or so other extremely knowledgeable varanid keepers, and as I recall you had only 3 pictures of 2 different lace monitors, and as Dr. Horn said who sat next to me, I have that picture in a book... All of the rest of your pics were snakes, snakes and more snakes.
You show the same photos of varanids here; so as there was a barrage of questions then, you did not answer them at all, as (gutless smeg-faced) david good cut it short - you did not answer anyones questions afterwords either, and we were all sitting outside that saturday night talking monitors - that is when I began to suspect all you say is not what is - as in a case scenario with a particular goanna you reported finding dozen or more under a rock, and in actuality there was only 1.
I do not doubt all you say, but some of it is suspect, so I ignore your banter much of the time...when you began speaking of social behavior and 'simple social behavior' vrs 'complicated social behavior' I knew your out of your depth of knowledge; what you are is a keen observers and you've bred monitors, but you have another side of you that is not as complimentary and all here who choose to do without it, do and no longer post because of YOU - nobody else, just your behavior. I will in all honesty say I have seen alot of kids with messed up psychologies, and you have some serious "issues" you need to address. If you are so anxious to be "one of the gang" of varanid people known World-wide, then publish what you preach, and I will leave you alone entirely, and most likely come to your defense more-so than now....just publish it...even as a flow chart with dates, numbers etc...its not that hard. Even a dummy like me gets stuff published, and all it takes is passion for it to happen, nothing more.

mbayless

. If you are so anxious to be "one of the gang" of varanid people known World-wide, then publish what you preach, and I will leave you alone entirely, and most likely come to your defense more-so than now....just publish it...even as a flow chart with dates, numbers etc...its not that hard. Even a dummy like me gets stuff published, and all it takes is passion for it to happen, nothing more.

mbayless

Anyone can publish anything. Words on paper do not make it true, accurate, or good science.
Nothing beats experience.

I have not written all of the material I have never having lived with varanids rsg:

Ive had 3.2 V. exanthematicus, 2.3 V. albigularis, 0.1 V. rudicollis, 1.1 V. bengalensis nebulosus, 1.1 V. dumerilii, 1.1 V. acanthurus, 0.1 ? Varanus (Indicus group), 0.1 V. doreanus, 1.1 V. jobiensis, 0.2 V. niloticus, 1.0 V. ornatus, and perhaps a few more/other species...and got plenty of eggs and babies from some of these animals, kept varanids 22 years...so I do not write without knowledge of them, or their husbandry....so before you make that statement, ask first.

mbayless

Mark, I have never read any of your publications. My post was directed more at your reliance on publications than what you have published. Believe it or not, I think you are a good librarian and have accumulated a wealth of information.

I also think it's great that you have kept 24 monitors in 22 years, but I have to ask for the proof of your success as you do for everyone else. You call into question everyone else's results because they do not publish them. But, you co authored a paper about sav hatchlings and the fact is you had nothing to do with the real work. So how about some pics of these hatchlings and cages that you did? Publications? Anything?

As little as three years ago, you stated that all our monitors were going to die because of the high temps and crappy diets, yet a lot keepers have duplicated these conditons with outstanding results. Myself included.

You and your friends like to talk about dogma, reading comprehension, spelling, and narrow mindedness. I think you are mistaken, while a paper that was written in 1996 may be a great piece of work and full of information, there are those of use that want to push the limits, try new things and not rely on the past.

In 96 I had two lacies(got way more now). In 96, indeed I used general reptile/snake husbandry on monitors, In 96 I was very successful doing that with five six, seven monitor species. In the preceding years, I have continued to be very successful. Is that a problem?

More importantly, In 96 I was a snake guy and not a monitor guy. Now, I again claim to not be a monitor guy, but a reptile guy. You monitor guys are something to avoid.

I went to that show, with my good friends, Ron and Mary Huffacker. They live in El Cajon. I went with them to dinner after the show. You know them, they know you, they owned EBV, between Ron Cobble and John and Owen. Rons the one who hatched the Savs you claim to have hatched, in 84, remember?

If I would have known this would make you so crazy, I would have flipped you the bone on my way out the door, As something to think about.

Your way of thinking is entirely why I do not respect you. Think about this, iF what I said was questionable at the time. Wouldn't it be prudent to investigate. Instead of pooping your pants for so many years. So, here you are with dirty pants for oh so many years. This makes me happy. You were offered that oppertunity. But you burned that bridge. FR

I went to that show, with my good friends, Ron and Mary Huffacker. They live in El Cajon. I went with them to dinner after the show. You know them, they know you, they owned EBV, between Ron Cobble and John and Owen. Rons the one who hatched the Savs you claim to have hatched, in 84, remember? - fr

Yes, I know Ron and Mary...great people. Ron did hatch the savannahs, and I wrote it up "for them", and of course I put my name on the author bi-line - I wrote the paper that they did the hatching of the captive hatched female V.exanthematicus. I wrote one on their egg deposition of V. panoptes too, in 1992, 1994. Does that mean I stated I bred them? Of course not - it says in the first paragraphs they did it...how many times do you wish to bring this up?

thanx for the clarifying of the snake pics in san diego - that explains some things quite well, but at the time, many of us were at a complete loss why you did that, and I never heard that explanation, so now I know - thanx.

mbayless

Hi Timo,
If you knew/know these 'Europeans' as I do, and as frank did before he wrote slanderous/threatening letters to them re: their respective forums (Bernd Eidenmuller and Vincent Breejen) you would see they are very likeable people and know varanid exceedingly well. MOST of the European varanid people will not associate with the North American breeders, and visa-versa due to behavior on a few persona's part. Think about that for a moment. The whole World does not center around kingsnake and varanus.net you know - there are other resources out there, that would surprise you, and that is what I am saying, that most North Americans are not aware of - so if you open your eyes abit more, you can see alot more things Varanids, and learn a great deal more about them. Have you seen Bernd Eidenmullers 2nd edition "Warane" book? It is in German, but an english edition is forth-coming, and there are species in there nobody has ever seen before...when was the last North American varanid book written by any breeder published here? Never.

mbayless

I was called by many people, that on their forums, both Mark and his teammate were constantly babbling about me. Throwing false statements left and right. Of course, they knew I do not post of those forums, so I was an easy target.

So I e-mailed both of the moderators and asked them to not let that continue. Or I would take action, this action or threat, as mark describes is, I would post and defend myself. Is that really a threat? To actually defend ones self. I also asked the moderators to have Mark and friends, prove what they are saying. They did not feel the need to support anything said.

Now mark, i intentionaly use lower case. To defend ones self from slanderous remarks is not really an attack. I asked both moderators if they wanted me to post of their forums and they said no. So I do not.

The same goes for JohnA, he onces asked me not to post of his, so again I do not. He later asked me to join his forum and post. But again I do not. IF you want to hear my stuff, you all can come here to KS and to V.net. Thats where I am. Its really your choice. If ego was envolved, I would do like you, go to every forum, in every country, and babble on. So I ask, whos ego is what? Thank you. and have you noticed the improvement in my writing? Even spelling? and context? I know I have a lot to learn but I have improved more in my writing then you in your monitor keeping. In all these years, you have not made one single achievement with live monitors.

So again Mark, your slanderous remarks are transparent and thin, after all is said and done, its about monitors and in that you are very weak.

If you ask me why your so weak at living monitors, my thoughts would be. Because your so confused at all the reading you do, that you confuse monitors with paper. They are different u know. FR

Yes, you wanted to defend yourself from myself, and others who commented about you...but you did not 'ask' them, you 'told' them is a very hostile and I say threatening demeanor. That was uncalled for - yes you were frustrated and all, but your words curse revealed who you really are inside, and that was a surprise to all who read those letters, myself included.

I know the difference between a varanid and paper: paper cuts, but a varanid rips....and 'papers' do not cause near-fatal secondary infections as one unknown (to be named soon) species varanid did to me ca. 2001.

mbayless

again your failure to research is amazing. I said to them, if you do not want we to post, then I will not. But please stop them from what they are doing. The end of the conversations were, i will defend myself. And that is true today. I will also be true in person.

In my mind, you knowing all this and continuing to do what you did, (go from forum to forum degrading me with false statements)makes you far more rude then I. And far more aggressive. and far less civilized. Think about that.

I did/do understand, that you set a trap and I walked in. Its the hunter who sets a trap, and a trapper is, in my mind the worse sneakyist pradator.

Its also my opinion, that your agenda and approach to "hurting me" has only caused harm to the average keeper, it did nothing to me and nothing to keepers with experience.

The reason your efforts are worthless is simple. I have monitors, I am successful with them. I share this with others. Nothing you can say will stop that. That has and will continue to run you over.

And lastly your false beliefs that I am commerical, and you will hurt my business, is also wrong. First I am not commerical. Second, if no one buys them, I leave the eggs in the ground to die, so if you did effect the market, then your responsible for those deaths. But the reality is, the more you cause arguements, the more people here about me, which in turn causes more and more people to buy monitors. You see, the buying public, does not care if I publish, or am one of your in group, or even if I am rude and not a nice guy, They simply want monitors. Funny how you helped me so much, for that I thank you for the platform. FR

The point is, all this is only words, yet, I successfully keep, produce and come up with noteable varanid behavior.

One reason I refuse to publish is, people like you. Sorry, its your fault. I like and respect and will help the common keeper, not the varanidphiles like you an Sam.

Hy Mark,

funny you mention it: I am from Germany myself and I've met Bernd in person, listened to some of his speeches and read both his books. I've talked a lot with Vincent but after all I don't claim to know them or could even compeat with their knowledge. But I claim the right to talk about things that just seem to be wrong within the things they say and write. If Bernd says Storris are too aggressive to be kept together and other people do exactly that without problems I have to ask how this is possible. The same with Bernds cages. They fullfil their purpose perfectly well but again I claim the right to say that they are too small for example.

You say they are very likable people - their are indeed . I like talking to them and they always try to help. And you are right with another thing: There are big differences between European and American breeders. I don't think you will find those "plastic tubs facilities" here in Germany or the Netherlands. But does this really make a difference to you? Frank is breeding monitors very successful as is Bernd. I've learned a lot by talking to him and reading his posts. I've learned a lot by Vincent, Bernd and you by reading your post on varanus.nl. I've learned a lot by people you will for sure not know. And just reffering to the number of published books can't be a argument. Bernd is publishing on a regular basis. Frank isn't but that doesn't affect the worth of his posts and knowledge.

What that all boils down to you may ask. I try to collect all knowledge I get and use it for something good. I try to filter worthless information and through this process I build my own knowledge. There is no reason in searching for a right way of keeping monitors. There is no good or bad like in Star Wars. There are just differences.

But as you see I don't call their knowledge in question. Good to have such a conversation with you and Frank

Best regards from Munich,

Timo
Link

Hello Timo,

Yes, I agree with your assessment and opinions whole heartedly. It is much easier to pull an article out of a file and review it to "compare/contrast" it, and then make your own decisions, and that is what we all do with varanids in the best ways we know how, through trials and errors. I try to review the forums each day, make notes or print out what is relevant, and file them where they best apply to varanids in my files, and move on...

frank and I differ on several things and that is fine; if all of us agreed on everything all the time, life would be a bore.

cheers,
mbayless

I was reading this discussion an some others the last few days, something comes to mind every time I hear the idead that Europeans are so far ahead with breeding monitors. Something I notice constantly on european classifieds, and in monitor forums of many many websites, the Europeans are always looking to buy commonly bred monitors, yet they say monitors are rarely ever bred in Europe, asking for people on our side of the pond to import them for their market. Examples that always are asked for Ackies, Ive also noted many requests for gouldi complex, and many others, if they are so far ahead with 40 years of experience why are they not overflowing with them. Not to say we are, but its common to find CBB monitors here, examples ackies, gouldi, argus, etc etc etc. There are people who have bred them there and here but there are more and more doing it here all of the time, the list just keeps growing everyday. So how are the Europeans so far ahead of us if there are so many here who are breeding and multiple generations occuring in a few places here?

Hy Shvar,

I think to got something wrong. This is quite off topic and I won't comment this discussion within this answer to your post above.

In Europe the number of monitors and monitor species is very limited. You will find some common species here like acanthurus, timoriensis, prasinus and beccari but others are very rare. Red ackies for example or glauertis. The need to be imported and breed by experienced breeders. So that's why they are so damn expensive. And that's why they are so rare.
Importing them is strictly prohibited (best way to import them is through Canada by the way) and even if it is allowed the imported animals are regularly controlled by authorities.
So there is an old stock of animals here that we need to breed with.

Best regards,

Timo

funny but, I understand that one of your very successful breeders had both red ackies and kimberlys, this was four or five years ago. Somehow they faded away.

Again, no names please, and no harm intended. The point is, we can all succeed and we can all fail.

Also, Germany was/is the center for new monitors/snakes/geckos the reason is very clear. They travel the world and somehow, things get stuck in the suitcase. This was from personal communicate with folks that carried the suitcases.

Also, if you check the records of which nationality has been caught illegally transporting repitles, the U.S. is not at the top. The countries mentions by someone else and Japan top the list. Again, This not placing blame, as people from all these countries may have done bad things.

Also of consideration is, in Europe, zoos, unis, private keepers all shared species as one. Not so here in the states. Here, they are all seperate and apart(for no apparent reason)

I went to both Frankfurt and Rotterdamn zoos, the excess list was posted on the herp room doors. That is not seen here.

I wonder why a certain person does not call those zoos commerial, as they surely excessed offspring. And to dealers too. Again, I respect that as your culture and clearly in my mind, its a better way.

But that does not reflect the actual keeping of monitors, its about obtaining species. I believe, he would had excess to species, won the first breedings. Not a very complicated senario. FR

I would not have mentioned glauertis and red ackies 'cause I thought one can make mistakes. But I wonder why nothing about mistakes is ever published. We could all learn a lot by reports like this. Seems like an open secret. But afterall it has nothing to do with the topic.

But what do you mean with "they all shared species as one"? DAmn, I should really improve my English (maybe during a stay in Australia - hint Frank )

Regards,

Timo

The zoos share animals with private keepers, as private keepers share with the zoos. As do the universities. Here, its looked down upon. The zoo and universitie worlds actively try to stop private keepers from keeping reptiles.

While of course, there are those who do not agree with this, all it took was me attending one ethics meeting a an AZA (american zoological ass.) meeting.

Also, In oz, they speak another form of english, as we speak a different version then England. While its english, it took me years to understand the Ozzie version.

Progress is measured in how we respond to failure. In other words, if you want to hear about failure, there would be a million more papers on monitors.

The scientific world does not publish something like this, I tried this and that, and it all failed. They only publish success.

Yes, we fail most of the time. If we didn't the world would be flooded with both u.s. and european monitors of all species. Thanks FR

Just so you know, I am Dutch, by no means a huge expert, but I do have a few species of monitors myself, glauerti's among them.

>>funny but, I understand that one of your very successful breeders had both red ackies and kimberlys, this was four or five years ago. Somehow they faded away.

No, not really. They weren't imported in any huge numbers, in fact glauerts did not become available that long ago. And as far as real reds go that is more difficult to say, there are a lot claiming to have those but it is not that easy to see whether or not they are "real" reds.
Right now there are several people I know of that breed glauerti's, some even really well. It is just a matter of time before they become readily available over here.
Also, I know what animals and what breeder you are referring to and I know what happened. Let's say you are too harsh on him.

>> Again, no names please, and no harm intended. The point is, we can all succeed and we can all fail.

I agree with that. I think Mark's statement that Europeans are way ahead is silly. There are good and bad breeders everywhere. What is true is that there is a lot more literature about it from European sources and that may bias his views. I do think there are quite some differences in the general attitude to keeping reptiles in Europe vs the US but won't go into that.

>> Also, Germany was/is the center for new monitors/snakes/geckos the reason is very clear. They travel the world and somehow, things get stuck in the suitcase. This was from personal communicate with folks that carried the suitcases.

All too true unfortunately. Holand used to be a center of reptile smuggling with connections anywhere. But then a lot of those animals were sold on to the US. Americans were prepared to pay more. It is amazing how many Australian species suddenly turned up on US breeders' lists in the last years. So, lets not point fingers, faults can be found on both sides of the ocean. Are all your animals from a legal source, tracebale to the original LEGAL WC? I doubt it. Not trying to put you down or anything like that, just trying to make a point.

>> Also of consideration is, in Europe, zoos, unis, private keepers all shared species as one. Not so here in the states. Here, they are all seperate and apart(for no apparent reason)

Again a little simplistic here. Some European zoos may sell offspring, but most are quite difficult about rarer species. It is not as simple as you make it out to be. Species that are endangered don't go to private people unless they participate in some studbook. And even then there are some zoos here that do not want to deal with private people (officially anyway).
On the other hand I have seen quite some US breeders that say their animals (very often snakes) come from this or that zoo stock. Are they all lying?
The truth is that if you have the right connections you probably can get animals from zoos here as well as in the US. There are more and more zoos here that do understand that to get a good size CB population cooperation with breeders is important.

>> I went to both Frankfurt and Rotterdamn zoos, the excess list was posted on the herp room doors. That is not seen here.

That must have been a long time ago. I come there about twice a month and have not seen that. And I am friends with one of their most experienced keepers there. You can get some animals from there, but not as easy as you make it sound and there are usually conditions (like being part of a studbook program).

>> I wonder why a certain person does not call those zoos commerial, as they surely excessed offspring. And to dealers too. Again, I respect that as your culture and clearly in my mind, its a better way.

Like you I have no problem with zoos selling excess offspring. Wh shouldn't they? But to call it commercial is several steps too far. At least Rotterdam, can't speak for the others. If they sell, then it is common species, like ratsnakes. All the other stuff goes to zoos or breeding programs. I know, I was really interested in some of their offspring to get unrelated animals for my own collection

>> But that does not reflect the actual keeping of monitors, its about obtaining species. I believe, he would had excess to species, won the first breedings. Not a very complicated senario.

If you have the knowhow to actually breed them, then yes. But, to me breeding first is not as important as breeding consistently. And that is a problem with many species on both side of the pond.