Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This has been an interesting and sometimes emotional topic. I mentioned the unreliability of the acid fast stain for crypto. There is an immunofluorescence assay (IFA)that has been developed for just this reason. This is done in human pathology labs, and for us snake owners, would require at minimum, a $1000 to $2000 microscope (1000x oil immersion optics with fluorescence capability). This is what a used microscope would cost. Forget a new one. Next, you would need some good microbiology training. The IFA test kits are not cheap either.

I was talking to a friend of mine, Rick, the owner of "Rodent Ranch" here in Southern California, about a year ago, and he clued me in to a possibly better way to diagnose crypto. Ball Pythons have been known for years to be particularly sensitive to Cryptosporidium. They invariably develop a characteristic and profound hard lump on one side or the other of the outside of their stomach when infected with crypto. Then they usually die. You all can see pictures of the obvious hard lumps in infected Ball Pythons in most reptile veterinary books.

Now this is kind of morbid, and I guess I am glad that I am not the one to originally suggest this. Some of you might want to hit the "Back to Indigo Forum" tab right now. Ball Pythons are cheap and plentiful. They are not endangered. Certainly the cost of a Ball Python is far less than the other methods I described above.

The Ball Python Assay for crypto (BPA): Keep a Ball Python with your indigo collection. Before you feed the Ball Python, smear it's meal with the fresh feces from one of you indigos. If any of your indigos have crypto, the Ball Python Assay will tell you. This is probably more accurate than any other method, and is something an indigo owner can do at home, at a small cost (money wise that is).

Anyways, Robert Bruce is not my real name, and Jeff, Zach, Bill, Paul, don't share my address with anyone for a while OK? No, I haven't personally tried this.

Tony, get a Ball Python. You'll kill yourself with the other methods.

You answered one of my questions while I was posting it, thanks (what ever your name is) (Irish?)

Scottish (dummy) A brain laps (more & more these days) Robert Bruce was Scottish of course (different Celt) . I've even read his bio.

Was about ta ask if you was usin the name of the Great Bruce. I'm not Scottish but I know my history.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Actually, my name, in truth, is Robert Bruce. I don't have any idea if I am related to Robert the Bruce, the famous Scottish king.

I figured there would be some backlash to my post. I expected to read a few dozen replies decrying my lack of respect for living creatures etc. I was denying my name in an attempt to throw in a little humor.

Where is everybody, are you all sleeping today? No response to the "Ball Python Assay?" Kidding aside, I have a feeling the BPA may be the least expensive and most reliable, owner-feasable test for crypto.

Robert Bruce.

Robert the Bruce & Gang,
I have been reading all your posts and the replies and other posts as well. When I met you I thought to myself this guy needs to check into the Indigo Forum. With a collection as big and as much experience as you have you should have been here a long time ago. I've been enjoying reading the forum for a while now, especially now that I have a pair (Indigos).

Seems that I have read several posts over the years about adult Indigos just dropping dead out of the clear blue. Im kind of paranoid of loosing one of mine. I have fed them food from pet stores and used tap water a few times as well, stupid. Now im scared straight. I found a supplier for frozen feeders and we have the fancy water at home so I use IT now. I clean the cages really well. But now my new concern is what to use for cleaning. I have been using very dilluted simple green. I think I will order the stuff Doug reccomended from the Bean Farm.

Anyhow I am here I just don't post much because I know so little, im trying to absorb all the knowledge. I have a question. First let me start by saying I have not started using the cellsorb and shavings yet. So I use newspaper and I have observed something peculiar...The female Indigo just turns the cage into a disaster meanwhile the newspaper in the males cage is perfectly neatly laid out, same as the way I laid it down. Why does the female crumple up the paper and push it around? Is she nest building or something? Any feedback on the popularly used cleaning solutions would be interesting too. Robert, since you don't seem to be afraid to voice your opinions on the forum I would like to bring up a subject while im at it...Just for the other members to comment on. FYI Gang: I bought a 6-7 yr old pair of Indigos from "The Bruce" and they were both about 6 ft, obviously kinda small for their age. So my question to the Gang is, considering their age and size do y'all think that if I continue to feed them well (not excessively) at this point they will still reach full size? If so how long might it take? Would there be any problem breeding them in November? Keep in mind that when I bought them they were supple and not skinny. Lastly "The Bruce" told me that putting them in the larger enclosures would be condusive to them growing larger. This is confusing to me because I have read posts of newbies getting slammed for asking if they kept their BCI or Burm in a smaller tank would the snake not grow as large. Surely if you put a Boa in a 20 gal tank it's going to grow full on if your feeding it well. Enlighten me. Anyhew this post is getting too long.

P.S. Robert, the dead stare technique did work on me, I always filled their bowls. That conversation we had was forever etched in my brain. Peace

My four female Easterns seldom mess up their papers, same for my Blacktail & Yellowtail my Uni female does, all have hide boxes, go figure. A six foot female is big enough to pass eggs without a problem, just feed her good.

Dear Zach,

Nice to hear from you on the forum as well.

I use a damp paper towel to clean the sides of my cages. I will explain this as a question. Do you think an animal can catch a disease from itself? I know of a lot of people that fret themselves with this and that disinfectant. Freud would have a term for that.

Keeping the cage clean is important. You don't want the snakes to get belly scale "burns" from sitting in their urine and feces. I can't believe you haven't tried my "Composite Bedding" technique yet. I sent you home with bags of Cellsorb Plus didn't I?. Paper is lame for indigos. I can hear Freud speaking again.

I will describe my bedding technique for the rest of you soon. The backlog of topics is starting to increase though.

The female you have is probably still uneasy about her new surroundings. My snakes will be restless like this even when I simply move their cage to a new spot in the room. Sometimes this takes four months before the animal quiets down. The amount of time an indigo is restless after a change varies from individual to individual. If you have moved her cage at all, you are biting yourself in the foot.

I use RO water but not because it is free of parasites. I just don't like trying to clean off the hard water residues in a snakes water bowl. These residues are as hard as concrete. Soft water would be equal to RO water or better, as it has dissolved minerals that RO water doesn't. Hard water is best for the snake. They can always use the extra calcium. It is just hardest on the owner.

Freezing the food items kills off parasites like roundworms, pinworms, lungworms, tapeworms, amoeba. It also macerates the tissue making it easier for the snake to digest. But, don't make yourself crazy with paranoia OK?

I explained other ways to kill an Indigo Snake to you when we met. I will post these on the forum later. If you remember what I said, I doubt you will have any problems.

I will let others answer your questions about whether or not to mate your (my) solid black indigos. You already know my answer anyways.

Take care, Robert Bruce.

>>Dear Zach,
>>
>>Nice to hear from you on the forum as well.
>>
>>I use a damp paper towel to clean the sides of my cages. I will explain this as a question. Do you think an animal can catch a disease from itself? I know of a lot of people that fret themselves with this and that disinfectant. Freud would have a term for that.
>>
>>Keeping the cage clean is important. You don't want the snakes to get belly scale "burns" from sitting in their urine and feces. I can't believe you haven't tried my "Composite Bedding" technique yet. I sent you home with bags of Cellsorb Plus didn't I?. Paper is lame for indigos. I can hear Freud speaking again.
>>
>>I will describe my bedding technique for the rest of you soon. The backlog of topics is starting to increase though.
>>
>>The female you have is probably still uneasy about her new surroundings. My snakes will be restless like this even when I simply move their cage to a new spot in the room. Sometimes this takes four months before the animal quiets down. The amount of time an indigo is restless after a change varies from individual to individual. If you have moved her cage at all, you are biting yourself in the foot.
>>
>>I use RO water but not because it is free of parasites. I just don't like trying to clean off the hard water residues in a snakes water bowl. These residues are as hard as concrete. Soft water would be equal to RO water or better, as it has dissolved minerals that RO water doesn't. Hard water is best for the snake. They can always use the extra calcium. It is just hardest on the owner.
>>
>>Freezing the food items kills off parasites like roundworms, pinworms, lungworms, tapeworms, amoeba. It also macerates the tissue making it easier for the snake to digest. But, don't make yourself crazy with paranoia OK?
>>
>>I explained other ways to kill an Indigo Snake to you when we met. I will post these on the forum later. If you remember what I said, I doubt you will have any problems.
>>
>>I will let others answer your questions about whether or not to mate your (my) solid black indigos. You already know my answer anyways.
>>
>>Take care, Robert Bruce.

Snakes CAN re-infect themselves. Obviously thay can't give themselves a disease that they don't have, but if they are carrying what would be a normal load of a particular pathogen, they can re-infect themselves and cause an abnormal buildup of that pathogen. This is especially true with certain direct life-cycle parasites (those that don't need an intermediate host), such as Strongyloids.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

In my view, the main reason for periodically thoroughly disinfecting the cages is to keep down infective bacteria that is always present. Things like Serratia, E. coli, Salmonella, various and sundry Gram-negative rods, etc. It's not that these are going to magically give your snake a disease one day, but these can cause rip-roaring infections if the snake happens to get a nose rub or break off a tooth or cut himself on something. By keeping the levels of these down as much as possible, you decrease the probability of an infection if a minor accident does occur. You will never completely eliminate them, but you can keep them to acceptable levels.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald,

Cleaning the walls of the cage with water removes 99 percent of the bacteria that are there anyways. If an animal gets a cut or lesion, an infection is most likely to develop from the microbial flora that are already present on the animals tissue, their skin or their mouth, etc. We don't keep our snakes mouths clean with Listerine, and we don't wash their skin daily with Nolvasan (chlorhexidine scrub). I have never had a problem with any "rip-roaring" infections like you mention. Wild snakes routinely get bit when they catch their prey, they almost always heal and survive. Skin and saliva are full of bacteria. My personal belief is, if the snake is healthy, it should recover from simple wounds with no treatment whatsoever. If we are worried, we can administer an antibiotic, topically or systemically. This is rarely necessary (but a little Neosporin helps the wound heal faster, and with less scarring).

I know that you have had your ways which have worked for you for years. My level of expertise is probably minute when compared with yours. So, I hope you don't take offense.

Take care, Robert Bruce.

>>Dear Gerald,
>>
>>Cleaning the walls of the cage with water removes 99 percent of the bacteria that are there anyways. If an animal gets a cut or lesion, an infection is most likely to develop from the microbial flora that are already present on the animals tissue, their skin or their mouth, etc. We don't keep our snakes mouths clean with Listerine, and we don't wash their skin daily with Nolvasan (chlorhexidine scrub). I have never had a problem with any "rip-roaring" infections like you mention. Wild snakes routinely get bit when they catch their prey, they almost always heal and survive. Skin and saliva are full of bacteria. My personal belief is, if the snake is healthy, it should recover from simple wounds with no treatment whatsoever. If we are worried, we can administer an antibiotic, topically or systemically. This is rarely necessary (but a little Neosporin helps the wound heal faster, and with less scarring).
>>
>>I know that you have had your ways which have worked for you for years. My level of expertise is probably minute when compared with yours. So, I hope you don't take offense.
>>
>>Take care, Robert Bruce.

Nope...no offense taken at all. This sort of exchange is where we get ideas and find things we are doing right and things we are doing wrong. If we didn't exchange ideas and opinions, we would just keep on doing things the same way, right or wrong.

I just recently lost a very nice animal to one of those "rip-roaring" infections. It happened quickly, too. I clean and disinfect my cages frequently and it STILL got me. This one started out as just a little scratch under the chin. I put neosporin on it and within 2 days, the snake's jaw was swollen to more than double it's normal. I immediately started the snake on IM antibiotics (Ceftazadime), lanced, drained and irrigated the abcess and it just kept on swelling. After 3 days, I did a smear of some of the pus, identified Gram-negative rods, and switched to Enrofloxacin. I injected a small amount at the infection site, then injected the rest of the dose normally. That seemed to help the infection in the jaw, the swelling was drastically reduced, but I noticed that the snake already had a systemic infection (the interstitial skin was pink), and within a week the snake was dead. Prior to getting the abcess, that snake was healthy as a horse. To this day, I have been unable to find what he cut himself on.

Gerald
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald,

It seems to me that your story, if anything, strengthens my argument about cage disinfection being overkill. I'm sorry you lost the animal.

When I have had deaths with a quick onset like that, the animal has always had a systemic infection. My guess is that your animal had an internal lesion , from whatever cause, that became infected. I can't fathom that an external scratch, no matter what got in it, could kill a healthy snake. It could have also had a cancer or immune disorder that had just progressed to a life threatening condition.

I will post the subject soon, "How to Kill an Indigo, Part II," so we all can cover this issue. We can have a gamely discussion then. You may be an old guy, but you have a lot of energy. Nice discussion we have had.

Robert Bruce.

>>Dear Gerald,
>>
>>It seems to me that your story, if anything, strengthens my argument about cage disinfection being overkill. I'm sorry you lost the animal.
>>
>>When I have had deaths with a quick onset like that, the animal has always had a systemic infection. My guess is that your animal had an internal lesion , from whatever cause, that became infected. I can't fathom that an external scratch, no matter what got in it, could kill a healthy snake. It could have also had a cancer or immune disorder that had just progressed to a life threatening condition.
>>
>>I will post the subject soon, "How to Kill an Indigo, Part II," so we all can cover this issue. We can have a gamely discussion then. You may be an old guy, but you have a lot of energy. Nice discussion we have had.
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

Robert,
Nope, it definitely started out as a small cut just between the line of the mandible and the mental groove on the left side of his chin. As I said, I didn't think much of it at first, and simply treated it with Neosporin. It progressed VERY rapidly and I was expressing volumous amounts of pus every day for few days. I lanced it along the line of the original wound that started everything, and actually removed a small patch of skin so I could keep it open to drain. I would express the infective matter every day, then irrigate it with Sterile Saline, then swab it out with Betadine. By the next day, it would be swollen even more. The swelling didn't start to abate until I switched antibiotics to Enrofloxacin, but by then it was systemic. This process up to this point took 6 days. Within 7 more days, he was dead.

I had this happen one other time in all the years I've been keeping herps. I lost a Monacled Cobra to a very similar infection that started with a mouse bite. I suspect the pathogen in that case came from the mouse's mouth. That was 24 years ago or so, and I've fed frozen/thawed since then.

You may be right. All this disinfecting might be overkill, and I may be doing it more for me than for the animals in reality. But, since it does make me feel more secure, I'll probably keep doing it. I suppose I could conduct an experiment of sorts if I had time and prove out your theory that wiping down with water removes 99% of the bacteria. I could use your method for one cage and after 2 weeks start cultures from that cage and one that I maintain as I normally do. It still probably wouldn't stop me from disinfecting, though. Freud would understand...

Gerald

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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald,

I am quite aware of your point. As captive breeders, though, I think that we have the responsibility to keep our animals free of strongid worms and other parasites. That means zero. I imagine you probably agree. Bearing a sub-lethal load of parasites is something that occurs in the wild, but being parasite free is something we can give our captives, perhaps in exchange for the limits on their freedom.

I personally shotgun treat any new entries into my collection with ivermectin (other than hatchlings). Five or six treatments at two week intervals is what I would reccommend, and I begin with a few treatments at lower concentrations in case the animal already has a load. I don't bother to run fecals. I know that some people will disagree with treating an animal that does not display any disease symptoms.

For those of you who may not know, if an animal is heavily loaded with worms, killing them all off at once will frequently kill the animal as well, from subsequent systemic bacterial infection.

I use what is known as "Ivercare" for horses which is available over the counter at Feed and Tack stores. I would start with one fifth the normal amount, or 0.04 mg per kg, orally. Then I work up to 0.2 mg per kg (the normal dose) over a month or two. I have personally used as much as 0.5 mg per kg in Eastern Indigos, with no symptoms of toxicity, so I believe in the safety of ivermectin.

If the animal were wild caught (which I no longer deal with) I would do the same thing with droncit, for tapeworms (which don't respond to ivermectin).

I just think that we all need to establish collections which are parasite free, as a starting point. Then, the need for disinfection as you expressed, for reinfection, becomes a moot point. Amoebiasis, the only other relevant direct cycle parasitic disease I can think of (other than crypto I suppose), won't be a problem if we use freeze thawed food items.

Robert Bruce.

Yep, I agree with keeping them worm-free. I use a different approach, but as long as the end result is the same I guess the approach doesn't matter much.

I do not use Ivermectin for Drymarchon. There have been deaths associated with Ivemerctin in Indigo Snakes, Urocoan Rattlesnakes and certain Lampropeltis (tricolors). It is also strongly contraindicated for ANY Chelonians. I also don't shotgun them. I have used shotgunning before, but it was when I was importing large numbers of animals and just couldn't possibly do floats and smears on all of them. When I'm acquiring animals one or two or a few at a time, I do fecal floats and smears on them and then treat only for what's there. For protozoans I use Flagyl, for Coccidians I use Albon, for Nematodes and that sort of thing I use Panacur, for Tapeworms I use Droncit.

Gerald
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dear Gerald,

I haven't heard of the contraindications in the snakes you mentioned to Ivermectin. I may be wrong, but did you mean Flagyl? I have read that one should not exceed a dosage of 40 mg per kg of Flagyl (metronidazole) in Indigos, Uracoan Rattlesnakes, and Tricolors. Higher dosages have caused deaths.

I have never encountered deaths in indigos due to amoebiasis, or flagellated protozoa. I have a sensation, but no proof, that healthy indigos are not threatened by these organisms (what Flagyl is used for).

It dawned on me after reading your post that my shotgun protocol might not be effective against coccidia. I don't think I would want to shotgun with a sulfa drug (Albon). Have you positively identified coccidia in captive bred or wild caught Drymarchon? If you have, were there any outward symptoms?

Robert Bruce.

>>Dear Gerald,
>>
>>I haven't heard of the contraindications in the snakes you mentioned to Ivermectin. I may be wrong, but did you mean Flagyl? I have read that one should not exceed a dosage of 40 mg per kg of Flagyl (metronidazole) in Indigos, Uracoan Rattlesnakes, and Tricolors. Higher dosages have caused deaths.
>>
>>I have never encountered deaths in indigos due to amoebiasis, or flagellated protozoa. I have a sensation, but no proof, that healthy indigos are not threatened by these organisms (what Flagyl is used for).
>>
>>It dawned on me after reading your post that my shotgun protocol might not be effective against coccidia. I don't think I would want to shotgun with a sulfa drug (Albon). Have you positively identified coccidia in captive bred or wild caught Drymarchon? If you have, were there any outward symptoms?
>>
>>Robert Bruce.

Yes, I have positively identified Coccidia (Eimeria sp.) in fresh import Blacktails. The initial symptoms were a regurgitation and then refusal to feed. Drys almost never regurgitate, so if they do there's probably something wrong. I've seen it several times in Milksnakes, too. It seems not to bother them until it reaches pretty heroic levels, though. In the ones that were symptomatic, there would at least 12 sporocysts per field @ 400x. Coccidia is also very difficult to eliminate. It usually takes at least 7 treatments to get them under control. That is also one that requires strict cleaning AND disinfecting of the cage to eliminate because it will reinfect easily.

And, yes..you are correct. It was Metronidazole that had the deaths of Urocoan Rattlesnakes and tricolor Kingsnakes attributed to it (as well as Drymarchon) at higher dosage levels (80-100mg/kg). Ivermectin has deaths of Indigos attributed to it as well as Chelonians. Hey, I'm an old guy...I'm entitled to a little confusion here and there. That's why I never trust my memory for dosing animals...I always refer to my formulary. In the 80's Ivermectin was the "hot new drug" and we used it on everything. I do remember hearing stories of Indigos dying from it back then, though. And people learned early on that it was deadly on Chelonians.

Cheers,
Gerald
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Thanks Roberto....Yes you did send me home with the celsorb and I inherited two free Large plastic wrapped blocks of shavings from a nice guy here in San Deigo who sold me the snake pictured here...I appreciate the excellent support I have received along with the purchase of your Indigos. Thanks again for your wise words...

Hey Robert, nothing personal, but it is difficult for me to take stock in someone's opinion when they hide behind a fictitious name; why the anonymity? Why not provide your real name so that we can address you properly. Someone in another forum did this for year's and really duped a lot of people which really irked me because he gained the trust of a lot of people as being the "expert". I have read your posts and you have made some interesting comments/observations and you have solid communication skills but when you make comments that you have killed your share of indigos that is a bit unsettling because I have found these snakes to be extremely hardy captives as long as certain things are in order (constant cleaning, lots of fresh water, quality feeders, etc.)....I am also very concerned when I hear the word "mass producing" and "indigos" in the same sentence; real scary stuff. Anyway, not trying to start a broo-hah here but just voicing my curiousity since it looks like you are going to be a regular here.

Rob Carmichael (that's my REAL name)
Curator of the Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Dear Rob,

My name truly is Robert Bruce. I was trying to add a little humor by denying my name. I recently posted a method to use Ball Pythons to act as indicator animals to detect crypto in the feces of indigo snakes. I figured I would receive a storm of criticism for my suggestion (actually a friend of mine suggested it to me). I assumed everyone could see that I was trying to add some levity to what is perhaps a morbid topic, but I realize it wasn't clear to all.

I think that someone else applied the term "mass production" to me. I have a lot of Eastern Indigos, and they are now the only species I keep. I haven't tried to dispel myself from the label. I indeed have tried to develop husbandry procedures that would minimize some of the time consuming chores. You can see by my recent posts, that I debate the need for cage disinfection, for example. But, I do believe that my snakes are healthy and well cared for. I am greatly affectionate for them, and I know and care for them all individually.

For a few years, I wasn't able to care for them like I should have. This was not at all my desire. I have three children and an ex. My children all adored the snakes, and they have all handled them and helped me with their care. The children's mother, when we lived together, in a need to be the center of attention I believe, began to have conflicts with my care for the snakes. She would say things like "you love the snakes more than me." I imagine some of you are familiar with this. She would know the days I had planned to clean and feed, and she began to "shut down" on those days. I would have no alternative but to care for the children instead, even though I did a great amount of childcare already. She would not allow me to oversee the children and work with the animals at the same time. She would threaten harm to the snakes. There were, as a result, many periods of two to three weeks between feeding and cleaning, and I was not able to care for them properly. It was during this time that I lost several animals after they had run out of water.

I had initially thought that the cause might be Cryptosporidium. I wasn't able to clearly see the actual cause and effect until several animals had succumbed. Focusing on crypto as the cause did not help, as it diverted my attention from the real cause.

I don't want to belabor my family and personal issues. Suffice it to say that we are separated now, and I clearly made the wrong choice in a mate for myself. One of the positive results is that my colony now receives the quality of care that I have always intended. I have had no deaths due to water deprivation in the last two years.

Losing animals, particularly those that you love, is no fun. I have no intention to joke about it. I wanted to pass on the lessons I learned. There are other ways to kill indigo snakes, some of which are not so obvious, particularly to someone who is new to them and does not have significant experience with them. I intend to post my personal knowledge about this subject.

When an Eastern Indigo dies, when any animal in captivity dies, it is sad and unfortunate. Perhaps the subject is taboo amongst some of the people who read the posts in this forum. Nonetheless, it is my belief that we need to openly discuss our experiences, positive and negative, for the betterment of the lives of these incredible creatures.

Robert Bruce.

I think we have all had difficulties at one time or another in maintaining our collections, some our fault and some not. The point is if we can pass that information along to others so that they may avoid the same problems, then we turn a negative into a positive. It's not always easy to admit the things that you've done wrong, sometimes it's easier to just take that info to your grave with you, but that won't do anyone any good. We are maintaining collections of very special animals. I think we need to take a queue from Robert and others that are willing to pass along good information (whether it makes us look "good" or not), and leave some of our egos and pride behind when there is useable information to pass along.

As far as the Ball Python Assay goes, well...sometimes the things we have to do aren't particularly "tasteful". Putting pinkies in a food processor or splitting their heads open would start a hurl-fest amongst the general population. We have to take clinical approach to things, and assess them by their potential value only (within reason). Emotion has it's place in what we do...we're all upset when we lose an animal, but I think we need to keep it in it's place.

We aren't here to swap "pedigrees". I don't think we need to question a person's qualifications or experience unless there is some demonstrated reason to do so. If a beginner has something valuable to add, I'm just as willing to listen to him as I am to the 30-year veteran. Maybe more so sometimes...sometimes as veterans, we tend to get "stuck" in one way of doing things, where a fresh approach may have more value.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Here Here! Good post man!
I know that I am one of those newbys, but I really appriciate the oportunity to come here and learn, and share. This is precisely why I made the announcement I made. I could have just as easily kept it to myself, but then no one would learn anything from my experience. But by coming forward, I have learned a great deal, and I hope all others have as well.

I am stiil trying to get all the details from the vet on the type of test used, and so forth, and I will post my findings again for your consideration, and your opinion. I do have a question though, After revewing all the facts I have posted on this,... if not crypto, then what killed this animal? Thanks,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

>>Here Here! Good post man!
>>I know that I am one of those newbys, but I really appriciate the oportunity to come here and learn, and share. This is precisely why I made the announcement I made. I could have just as easily kept it to myself, but then no one would learn anything from my experience. But by coming forward, I have learned a great deal, and I hope all others have as well.
>>
>>I am stiil trying to get all the details from the vet on the type of test used, and so forth, and I will post my findings again for your consideration, and your opinion. I do have a question though, After revewing all the facts I have posted on this,... if not crypto, then what killed this animal? Thanks,
>>T.
>>-----
>>"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".

Can you give us a run-down on exactly what the symptoms were, how it progressed and a time-line?
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

I see your previous post now....
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

>>This has been an interesting and sometimes emotional topic. I mentioned the unreliability of the acid fast stain for crypto. There is an immunofluorescence assay (IFA)that has been developed for just this reason. This is done in human pathology labs, and for us snake owners, would require at minimum, a $1000 to $2000 microscope (1000x oil immersion optics with fluorescence capability). This is what a used microscope would cost. Forget a new one. Next, you would need some good microbiology training. The IFA test kits are not cheap either.
>>
>>I was talking to a friend of mine, Rick, the owner of "Rodent Ranch" here in Southern California, about a year ago, and he clued me in to a possibly better way to diagnose crypto. Ball Pythons have been known for years to be particularly sensitive to Cryptosporidium. They invariably develop a characteristic and profound hard lump on one side or the other of the outside of their stomach when infected with crypto. Then they usually die. You all can see pictures of the obvious hard lumps in infected Ball Pythons in most reptile veterinary books.
>>
>>Now this is kind of morbid, and I guess I am glad that I am not the one to originally suggest this. Some of you might want to hit the "Back to Indigo Forum" tab right now. Ball Pythons are cheap and plentiful. They are not endangered. Certainly the cost of a Ball Python is far less than the other methods I described above.
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>>The Ball Python Assay for crypto (BPA): Keep a Ball Python with your indigo collection. Before you feed the Ball Python, smear it's meal with the fresh feces from one of you indigos. If any of your indigos have crypto, the Ball Python Assay will tell you. This is probably more accurate than any other method, and is something an indigo owner can do at home, at a small cost (money wise that is).
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>>Anyways, Robert Bruce is not my real name, and Jeff, Zach, Bill, Paul, don't share my address with anyone for a while OK? No, I haven't personally tried this.
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>>Tony, get a Ball Python. You'll kill yourself with the other methods.

IFA is definitely the way to go if you can afford it, but differential acid-fast staining is reliable if you know what you are looking for. It's not an easy technique and it's easy to mess it up (and have to start over), but it does work. The thing is that C.serpentis is a VERY small organism. I use an oil-immersion microscope at 1600x, and it's still small. An ESM would work better, but I'd have a hard time justifying $100,000.00 But, if Crypto is present, it will show differentially under a light microscope, even without flourescing capabilities. Looking at stomach lavages is tricky .....smears are easier, but you have to have a dead animal for that.

The Ball Python trick might work (sort of like taking a Canary into the mine), assuming it gets sick before the Indigos do. On the other hand, if you don't quarantine the Ball Python sufficiently, you could bring Crypto into your collection with it.
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We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors; we borrow it from our children. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Hmmm,...Sounds like very practical advice. I will most definately consider it. Thanks,
T.
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"No tree would have branches foolish enough to argue amongst themseleves".