Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What makes you say captives are starved?

--Robert

We have discussed this on varanus.net, and most recently with Goon.

In Goons case, she was not starving her rudi baby. But indeed the example is good.

She posted her baby rudi was eating like a pig, she fed it a number of fuzzies, but it was still hungry, so she would not feed it anymore. She thought her monitor did not know how much to eat.

I explained the monitor will stop feeding when full. So she fed it until it was full and indeed it stopped feeding on its own. Why do keepers thing they know when a individual is full?

In her case, the difference was volume, not about starving.

In nature, monitors forage until full. Food is at most times plentiful. If food is scare, then they too can starve. Monitors progress went food is availible. They do not progress, when its not. How simple is that. That applies to both nature and captivity.

And lastly, consuming large volumes and the ability to digest that, is based on conditions allowed. Some may eat alot, and requritate, thats not the monitor, its the conditions.

So, when I read some zoo or keeper, has their monitor eat its cage mate and they say, the monitors are cannibels, I think, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm they should have not starved them. They don't consider its starvation, they only consider cannibalism.

A keeper must consider, animals, do not feed on our schedule, they feed when they are hungry. They do not feed, every third day, or once a day, or twice a week, or oh my, the zoo by me, fed everyother monday. What does any of that have to do with animals that would feed when hungry if they had their choice. FR

But of course, we always blame the poor animals. I wonder why? FR

In my opinion, I do not think monitors are cannibels, that is, they do not eat members of their own colony. But they will when starved. So will you.

We do indeed keep monitors in groups, and indeed, how agressive they feed is dependant on how they are fed. If fed often, they do not harm eachother. But if starved, all bets are off.

In other words, if we see them eating eachother or harming eachother. I realize, I am not feeding enough. Its about me, not about them.

Cannibalism has been seen in almost every varanid species as you know....and yes they could have been starved, that is true... they are known for their glutony.

Could it also be they do this to elliminate conspecifics for future food resources, mates, and territory as well? Most varanids are territorial, and in captivity you would see this more often I would think, as it is an artifical box, than in the wild (in wild it is most likely rare event too).
mbayless

Perhaps, maybe, could be, might, possible, etc. all those can apply to anything. The question is do they?

Knowledge is knowing what applys where, experience teaches you that. I guess papers can be misleading.

These are easily tested in the lab. You should try it and if you design the tests properly, perhaps, you may know or understand something. Maybe you wouldn't have to guess. I am not trying to be mean. The tests may not answer anything directly, they "may" allow you to see other possibilities.

Also, whether this applies to nature or not, is not my concern. My concern is here in captivity. After all, I work with these captives day in and day out. If some of this ends up applying to wild monitors, that would be great, if not, thats great too.

At least in nature, weather permitting, they can go hunt when hungry. Not so in captivity.

The point is, we here at goanna ranch, do not see cannibalism, unless we starve monitors. How it applys or to what you want to apply it too, is yours to do.

Glutony, in captivity is a product of poor feeding habits, hmmmmmmmmm that works for humans and dogs, etc, too.

If your not fed when your hungry, its easy to become glutonous.

Eating a conspecific to prevent future competition, is really a human trait. I really don't think reptiles think that far ahead.

Perhaps, you should do some tests and keep us updated on them. Thank you FR

Perhaps, maybe, could be, might, possible, etc. all those can apply to anything. The question is do they?

Knowledge is knowing what applys where, experience teaches you that. I guess papers can be misleading.

These are easily tested in the lab. You should try it and if you design the tests properly, perhaps, you may know or understand something. Maybe you wouldn't have to guess. I am not trying to be mean. The tests may not answer anything directly, they "may" allow you to see other possibilities.

Also, whether this applies to nature or not, is not my concern. My concern is here in captivity. After all, I work with these captives day in and day out. If some of this ends up applying to wild monitors, that would be great, if not, thats great too.
At least in nature, weather permitting, they can go hunt when hungry. Not so in captivity.
The point is, we here at goanna ranch, do not see cannibalism, unless we starve monitors. How it applys or to what you want to apply it too, is yours to do.
Glutony, in captivity is a product of poor feeding habits, hmmmmmmmmm that works for humans and dogs, etc, too.
If your not fed when your hungry, its easy to become glutonous.

Eating a conspecific to prevent future competition, is really a human trait. I really don't think reptiles think that far ahead.-fr

You apply 'human traits' to reptiles, and as reptiles were here before mammals, this part of their genetics is a basic trait among all vertebrates and most invertebrates as well. From wasps and lower forms of insects, many reptiles, gulls, mammals such as bears (Ursidae), Macaques, chimps, humans (Primates), lions and hyenas (mammalia) all do this. Konrad Lorenz, Father of Animal Behavior studies in the 1940's-1990's thoughtr cannibalism was rare and unusual. Edward O. Wilson has noted and reversed Lorenz's work on cannibalism to show it is quite common in the animal kingdom - Humans are not the only 'animals' who murder - and why do they all do this? There is no 'rule of conduct' in competetive and predatory behaviors to explain cannibalism or even aggressive behavior to this level. Species are opportunistic and varanids one of the best examples...as yo point out often they can eat anything, whether specialized (my opinion that some are) or generalists (as you say they all are). If it is advantageous for an individual to be a cannibal then it will pursue this endeavor and act. Some become habitual cannibals and as Lorienz did say of that, that is exceedingly rare with only a very few species engaged in that (i.e. Japans red crab) as far as anyone knows.

Cannibalim is seen more frequently in regions of higher population densities (as seen in nesting rookeries, bird and reptiles alike), where food resources are limited, and when aggression is at its zenith. As expected in this context it is seen more frequently among 'social animals' (there is that 'social' word again!) - but also applies to non-social species as well. It is a indicator of competition and opportunistic feeding behaviors, allowing stronger larger young or conspecifics (i.e. siblingcide) to achieve adult size quicker.

So nobody needs to do any experiment and 'report' back to you on this -it is all in black and white for anyone to look at - and takes 2 minutes to do so. Sometimes books can be helpful - you might try it sometime.

mbayless

Guezz, what you can learn in two minutes, holy moly.

Yup I sure am doing this the hardway. It actually takes me years.(but its fun and I am having fun) Are you having fun Mark?

Congrats, your knowing all this is important. Knowing from reading is very questionable.

May I offer food for thought??????????????????????

To read is to make aware, being aware is to assist learning, to learn is from doing.
To teach, is to make aware, to shorten the learning curve, to make doing easier or faster. To assist in the doing.

The point, reading is not learning, the reason, real tangible things fit between the words. To read about life or living things, does not compare to the actual living of life or to actual living things.

Mark, I feel sad for you, if all you have is reading. I hope you could actually do some real living and seeing real living things.

May I ask a favor, please allow us to learn by doing and actually experiencing this stuff. You do understand, we can read if we want.

Hey mark, do you know what a paper is, its a middleman. The monitors are the actual thing. I do feel dumb, lets see, I could look at the object of concern, or I could go ask someone else, what he thought of the object of concern. I think I will look for myself. Even if I am really dumb.

Its great if you would provide papers or cite them, but please, your interpitation is sadly wrong. Thanks FR

Two minutes, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

You asked a question and stated what you thought it was - again your graps on a behavior was abit off - but we all learn something new right? I gave you additional information on it, and you don't like it - fine with me. Observation is good, and interpretation "can" be good, but as I said in earlier post, what "it" seems is not always what it is in the World of Animal Behavior studies (= Ethology). I do not read all the time, but it is handy to have resources around when you need them. I too have seen Varanus engage in cannibalism and it is not pretty sight. It happens to animals such as these...'paper' materials ONLY give one a basis to a 'jumping off' point for any given behavior (in this case), and is not an 'only' resource, as we both know....the point of literature (in this context) is to find enjoyment, references (to jump off from), and learn of zoologica or whatever your interest is.... When you put observation along WITH book-learning, what you see 'can' be seen with much more clarity than just the observation alone... maybe you didn't know that?

It took me years to figure out what V. exanthematicus were doing when they would grab their hind foot and flip over onto their backs repeatedly - only to discover it was "playing possum" and have been photographed as such in 1926:125 by Dr. Thomas Barbour. Nobody had then (= early 1980's) knew what it was, and I inquired a great deal about it...when a behavior can be supported by something written is fine and good, and when a behavior is not, the fun begins....but in the cannibalism scenario, it is more understood than perhaps you realize.

Oh, the citations you requested (if you really care?):
On Agression. Konrad Lorenz.
Sociobiology. Edward O. Wilson.

mbayless

Its making a donut or ring. Makes it hard for snakes to swallow. I was lucky again. I learned all about that from cali. Alligator lizards, in the sixties. They do that commonly. So indeed, experience, beats out your reading again. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

So I have to ask, you want me to read more, so I will be what? know even more then I do now? hahahahahahahahahaha

Mark, what amazes me is, how much you care for me. But brother, you should really be concerned about yourself. I am doing fine. Thank You FR

This is not what savs are doing. they bite their back leg, in an effort to make it difficult to swallow. There is a huge difference.

That is a defense for non-venomous snakes. Venomous snakes crack vail of protection.

Please consider, this defense is not for mammals or larger monitors, that crush their prey, its for non=venomous snakes. Thanks FR

Mark remember authorities used to believe that komodo's where impossible to raise in groups, yet they have the tiniest distribution amongst the varanids. Just about every herpetologist once believed that captive’s varanids should be kept single; they said this because of competition! Feeding frenzy! Cannibalism! And probably other nonsense reasons I can’t think of, as you know I am farming monitors in huge groups, and I almost never experience the above, unless I neglect my husbandry (starving). I have groups of 40 niloticus kept in large pens with very limited fighting and only a few casualties per year. Kept in numbers I see no behavioural difference between BT or Nil’s they establish the same hierarchy. I too like to read documentation, however I know from experience that many of these authors who’d have a deferent interpretation of animal behaviour if they had first hand captive experience, and even then interpretation of observations would differ depending on ones understanding. I can relate to everything FR says concerning cannibalism in captive varanids, this is where many of the top varanophil's fails, I think its total nonsense to regulate feeding. We are arrogant in thinking we understand monitors, and telling them what to do based on misunderstanding is plain ignorance.

I saw zoo gorillas on discovery and was shocked! These look like they came out of the gymnasium not jungle!?!?!????????.

There are many published studies of diets of wild monitors. The sample sizes tend to be small for uncommon or small species, but are often quite large for species where researchers have had access to carcasses at skinning plants. These are of course snapshots -- what an individual ate in the day or so before it was killed, but they are probably not biased in other ways. Few research workers are going to go and kill a large sample of monitors simply to see what their last meal was, but roadkills are common, and you can have a look at those. I checked gut contents (and reproductive condition, etc.) of a couple of hundred road-killed goannas of several species while working in northern Australia, and never found an instance of cannibalism.

What emerges from these studies is that cannibalism occurs in the field, but it is relatively rare. Predation (eating a monitor of another species) is a lot more common than is cannibalism. Since monitors will eat almost anything they encounter, and larger species like gouldii, panoptes, giganteus and varius often do eat adults of smaller species, what's the explanation for the relative scarcity of cannibalism? After all, two animals of the same species should have more similar habits than two animals of different species, so by that reasoning a perentie should encounter more perenties than individuals of V. gouldii, V. tristis, etc.

The simple answer is that juveniles of all of the larger species of varanids that have been studied select very different microhabitats than do adults. Hatchling and juvenile Komodos, for example, are almost wholly arboreal; hatchling and juvenile perenties live in dense rock outcrops (rather like V. glebopalma does); hatchling niloticus, panoptes and salvator live in very dense vegetation (reed beds, etc.), where adult animals simply cannot move rapidly. Even among smaller species, the hatchlings are rarely seen in the wild, and then often in places where adults would not normally occur: hatchling V. scalaris and V. tristis, for example, tend to be in smaller trees than those that the adults select for foraging, and they often live in small dead trees, under bark that is too tight for larger animals to enter.

Thus, there isn't any evidence that monitors avoid cannibalism in nature; what we do see is that the kids are "afraid of mom and pop", and live elsewhere.

Ok, I get that, it's easy to provide a lower level from what they need, and keep them there. Thanks.

About cannibalism, isn't this a somewhat misleading word, do you think there is a difference between a monitor eating a dead monitor and one actually killing it to eat. Cannibalism is kind of used as both (kill to eat and eating already dead), so perhaps it's not the clearest term.

--Robert

At the present time I am not keeping monitors, but the food argument goes even further. For years before I set-up frilled dragons everyone always said never put males together or they will tear each other up. I kept 2.4 together and hatched over 75 eggs that year. I wasn't using a cage bigger than anyone else, but I did discover the world of roaches and my frilled ate everyday until their where content. Now I am working with the Nephrurus species and I believe the same applies. I hear most people saying they feed one or two crickets to an amyae every day or two. Mine are eating roaches weighing 2-3 times more than an adult cricket everyday, and its one clutch after another. With both species I have also found they do not loose very much weight during breeding, and always recover quickly. Feed your reptiles a much as they want and you'll be amazed with what happens.
JT